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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #60 on Jan 19, 2010, 6:03pm »
For all reasons mentioned by Jeff, A Passion Play & btw: Come on, like the Brick there's nothing else like it. We're in a different universe here. This Was is pretty much earthbound. Time to throw in the towel. Thick as a Brick is an ode to the living. LATER. "See there! A man is born and we pronounce him fit for peace.There's a load lifted from his shoulders with the discovery of his disease We'll take the child from him put it to the test teach it to be a wise man how to fool the rest." & APP is an ode to the dead. "Do you still see me even here?'' (The silver cord lies on the ground.)"And so I'm dead'', the young man said."
..and I'm going to be really old before this whole contest wraps up.
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #61 on Jan 20, 2010, 10:13am »
1) Break new ground? This Was edges out APP for breaking new ground both for the group and what was going on musically at the time of release.
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous? APP wins hands down in complexity. Adventurosity hmmmm. Is it really adventurous given the era? On the other hand, to feature a flute in a blues/rock band...that's pretty adventurous. Tie.
3) Quality of lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning. Ha! Let's call that one a tie. Whatever APP gains with imagery, rhyme and metaphor it subsequently loses with content and meaning.
4) How essential? Does it contain Tull classics? Man this one's tough. Both This Was and APP are essentially unessential to the non die-hard fan/collector. You can't really dissect APP down to containing Tull Classics whereas This Was is rife with them. However, being a pre-pubescent Tull album (you know, before they became the Tull everyone knows) it's kind of a throw-away (not that I ever would mind you). This Was wins on the strength of the Tull classics.
5) How well-sung? APP has more adventurous singing but he's trying too hard in spots. I do miss some of the vocal affections of This Was. Missing is the "fun" from This Was and Stand Up. However, we do get a nice narrative by Mr. Hammond-Hammond. Tie.
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example. Ugh...I abhor the sax in APP. Knock it off Ian! This Was by a long stretch.
7) The tongue in cheekiness of This Was wins the packaging dpt.
8) SQ APP wins from the items I have. I have not heard the Mono This Was though...maybe if I had a nice pink island that's be the winner.
9) Humour APP...you can guru, you can!
By a margin of two to one, This Was has the wins over APP. Take that magus perde, someday the sun won't shine for you!
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #62 on Jan 20, 2010, 11:38am »
The dark side of the passion play. Since you are the kindly doctor I'll go easy on you. <heavily edited> That was an interesting read. Thank you. Elaborate, please: "Whatever APP gains with imagery, rhyme and metaphor it subsequently loses with content and meaning."
I can't live without APP. Without This Was I will live. APP play should win for the theatre programme alone.
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #63 on Jan 20, 2010, 11:51am »
Hello, Dr. Bogenbroom, and thank you for your bold analysis in which you raise some excellent points. A strong argument can be made for This Was on the basis of the six Tull classics it contains. I went for Passion Play, but by a small margin in each category. Unlike many Tull fans, I do not rate Passion Play in my top tier of Tull albums; it is ranked no higher than seventh or eighth in my personal Tull pantheon.
I feel there was a certain cynicism about that whole project. Ian had always expressed his utter disdain for the drug culture of the time and then goes ahead and makes an album that he certainly must have known would appeal to that very drug culture, i.e., the rabbit costumes, the heartbeat, the strange voices and special effects, the inpenetrable lyrics and The Hare. Why, other than for reasons of commercial success, would he have wanted to appeal to an audience that he himself had always frowned upon? Nevertheless, despite my deep reservations about Ian's motives, and about the lyrics and theme themselves, I voted for PP because it is an astounding piece of music.
Thank you also, JohnN, for your patience and ongoing participation in this lengthy Album Wars feature. You're right it's going to take awhile, but that's what makes it so much fun!
Okay, so taking into account Tootull's and Bogenbroom's respective votes, as well as Paul's vote and my own, the Round Six score is now:
Passion Play - 3 votes, This Was - 1 vote. Passion Play still needs two votes. This could get interesting.
I'll give this one to TW. I never heard a blues based album with flute before. The one continuous piece of music was already done with TAAB and let's face it, Tull would be hard pressed to top it.
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
Passion Play all the way. From the opera-like beginnings to the Asian inspired closing edit.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
I'm going to give this one to TW as well, since there was no way in hell (no pun intended) I could follow the entire lyrics through with APP.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
For many people APP is Tull at their finest. Probably not too many feel the same way about TW.
5) How well-sung is the album?
IMO APP is Ian's finest vocal performance - ever.
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
First album for Ian's sax I think. Also John expanded his keyboard sounds for APP. John played a major role on this one.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
Not my personal favorite by any stretch but it must be APP.
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
APP
9) Does the album have a sense of humor?
Agree with Jeff. Got to give to APP.
7-2 APP.
Round Six score so far: Passion Play - 2 votes, (poor) TW - 0 votes.
Interesting read, too. For me, I like the sound of APP on all CD releases, but, I must say for this release and WarChild above all others, MFSL have recreated a sound to die for. Sends me back to 1973-74. Hey!
I missed TM's post until now. (hiding out at the bottom of the last page or maybe I was blinded by the capitals)
The dark side of the passion play. Since you are the kindly doctor I'll go easy on you. <heavily edited> That was an interesting read. Thank you. Elaborate, please: "Whatever APP gains with imagery, rhyme and metaphor it subsequently loses with content and meaning."
I can't live without APP. Without This Was I will live. APP play should win for the theatre programme alone.
truetull - We used to know it all!
Well maybe if I had a theater program for APP I would have given that the win for packaging. I haven't seen that...gonna have to track one down. In the land of used purchasing sometimes items get lost.
Imagery, rhyme, metaphor...content & meaning.
APP is a no-holds-barred concept/prog album which we all know aren't usually very strong in the clarity area. What is the meaning of it all? Does Ian know? Aside from the after-death experience it all gets a bit muddled. I enjoy the figuring of obscurity as much as the next guy but this is so far past being obscure it would seem to approach clarity! That is, of course, if obscurity were round.
As much great stuff is in the Play there is something else which negates it (lyrically speaking).
I'm with you Nonfatman, what was the goal here? Sometimes I think it's a bit of a joke because of how Ian has explained TAAB.
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #66 on Jan 25, 2010, 2:21pm »
We're still at APP-3, TW-1 in Round 6.
Anyone who hasn't voted yet care to weigh in? LIBR, Mix, Quizz Kid, Journeyman, Dan, KBailey, Derek, Tullite, CousinJack.....or how about you Holly? Try to use the nine-pronged approach if possible, so as to make it more interesting.
As always, first album to reach five votes wins the round.
Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #69 on Feb 16, 2010, 10:20am »
I am new to the album wars, and that being said it is an interesting feature to see how everyone feels about certain albums and time periods of Ian and Jethro Tull music.
I thought bogenbroom made some interesting points for This Was and was on the money with the points that he brought up.
But I would have to go with A PP for depth of subject matter, I thought the song were much sung and arranged . I thought APP broke some new ground with Ian taken on some more instruments the saxophones, . The band had a maturity to that did not have when the released This Was so the there was no the same "raw energy" . Which I think works against APP in places. In my opinion their other NO other band out in the 70 willing to take a chance to release anything like TAAB or APP. So I think both of these albums are ground breaking on those reasons alone. I have to give the edge on sound to APP based on the fact the even trying to comparing studio's and engineering. The band performance I would give to This Was because there is of sheer newness of Ian Anderson and of Jethro on the scene of music.
A very interesting a difficult album war but my vote would go to A Passion Play.. we ve got you tape you're in the play
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010, 10:22am by Derek Pith »
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #70 on Feb 16, 2010, 12:34pm »
Great analysis there.....I just wish you could find that Tull term paper you did many years ago on Thick as a Brick!
Okay, so Derek's vote makes it official: Passion Play wins over This Was by a count of 5-1, and This Was's record remains winless at 0 wins, 6 losses.
By the way, I should point out that ties are permissible, so in case you are so torn between albums that you cannot decide, you could cast a "tie" vote. But, as always, it will still take five votes for an album to win a particular round.
Okay, so I will set up the next round in a day or two. Coming soon: Round 7 in This Was's album wars:
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #71 on Feb 18, 2010, 11:56am »
Okay, here we go with This Was Album War Round 7: This Was v. War Child. As usual, first album to get five votes wins. I will start the proceedings:
1) Does the album break any new ground?
This Was, for all the reasons previously stated, does. However, I don't view War Child as particularly ground-breaking, as it's pretty straightforward rock. So I would give this category to This Was.
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
Again, much of War Child is pretty straightforward rock, it doesn't have the same complexity as prior Tull albums, and some of it is rather tedious. Songs like the title track, Queen and Country, Seal Driver, Back-Door Angels and Two Fingers are all good solid Tull songs, I just wouldn't call them great, they are a bit repetitive and overly bombastic, even for Tull (although they probably were absolute killers in concert). So I'm giving this one to This Was as well.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
I'm not crazy about the War Child lyrics, the meanings are very obscure, and I've never been able to really connect with them. But This Was is not notable for its lyrics, so this one goes to War Child.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
Skating Away and Bungle are Tull classics, arguably The Third Hoorah, but that's really it. This Was has got Jeffrey Goes, My Sunday Feeling, Beggar's Farm, Dharma, Serenade, Someday the Sun, etc., so there are more Tull classics there, and in terms of live shows, This Was gets played much more often than War Child, so This Was wins this one.
5) How well-sung is the album?
I would have to call this one a tie. For some reason, I have never liked Ian's vocals on War Child as much as on other Tull albums. They are.....somewhat harsh and almost trample over the music. But the vocals on This Was are not great either.
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
The saxophone and bomb sirens on War Child, and other effects, would win out over This Was's claghorn, I suppose. War Child.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
I'm calling this one a tie.
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
War Child over This Was.
9) Does the album have a sense of humor?
I'll award War Child this category on the basis of Only Solitaire and The Third Hoorah, both of which are fun even though Only Solitaire is basically Ian sulking over a negative review. This Was really is not known for it's humor, despite light-hearted songs like Jeffrey and Serenade.
So, to sum up, I gave This Was three out of the five most important categories, with one for War Child and one tie, but I gave War Child three out of the four lesser categories, with one tie, so that amounts to: Four for War Child, Three for This Was and two ties, but since This Was took three of the most important categories, I cast my vote for This Was.
Round Seven score so far: This Was - 1 vote War Child - 0 votes
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #72 on Feb 19, 2010, 7:25am »
1) Does the album break any new ground?
This Was, for all the reasons previously stated by Jeff and for the fact that it introduced Tull onto the recorded music scene, does. However, when compared with TaaB and APP, and even Aqualung, I don't view Warchild as particularly ground-breaking, as Jeff says it's pretty straightforward rock. So I too would give this category to This Was.
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
Jeff, Seal driver?
Although Warchild is basically rock, I think it is complex, spinning out ideas from a variety of other albums, and I think throwing in the odd rejected song here and there [two fingers, solitaire] have worked it into an overall tighter and more complex piece. I accept it doesn't have the same complexity as the previous fewTull albums but was a step forward, I think, in terms of production and quality and saw a return to more introspective song-writng from Ian.
This was, was very much of its time and had a limited lifespan given the speed at which music production was moving at that time and as for adventurous I think that if you disaggregate the flute, particularly the way Ian played it then, from the rest of the album, it could have got lost alongside the work of a plethora of other blues bands of the time.
So I'm giving this one to Warchild.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
I’m with Jeff on the Warchild lyrics, with the particular exceptions of Q&C, SAOTTIOAND, Solitaire and TF, but again I agree with Jeff This Was is not notable for its lyrics, so my vote also goes to War Child on this one based on the fact that there are at least a few lyrical gems on this one in my view.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
I think hearing a lot of TW live has tarnished things for me a little, but I can always listen to WC, but I can accept that in Tull’s history the TW listing is more readily identifiable as classic Tull, so reluctantly This Was wins this one for me also.
5) How well-sung is the album?
For me, it’s WC out front, TW was a little too rough around the edges with Ian still finding his voice.
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
Although the saxophone and other effects were used on other albums, I think with the accordion and other snippets [i.e. reworking of songs] made it enjoyable. The return to segregated tracks was also welcome and in my book gives WC the edge over This Was.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
Like Jeff I'm also calling this one a tie. This Was is a uninspiring cover for me, it was of the time and sits as an equal alongside a myriad of other covers of that time, good but not special. Warchild was disappointing after the great work of LitP, TaaB and APP and although easily identifiable as Tull, it didn’t push any boundaries. For me it was the end of the one of the most artistically innovative bands in terms of packaging and album presentation, saved only by the box sets and believe it or not “Under Wraps” in later years.
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
Warchild without doubt.
9) Does the album have a sense of humour?
Warchild for me – It still has Ian playing with words, poking fun, getting a little snide possibly, all with pun and innuendo, but all in all, it’s a more mature Ian writing and being the wordsmith, something you couldn’t really assign to This Was.
In summary my totals are; This Was - two out of the nine categories War Child - 6 out of the nine categories with one tied category,
My vote goes to Warchild.
Round Seven score so far: This Was - 1 vote War Child - 1 vote
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #73 on Feb 19, 2010, 4:41pm »
Great analysis there, Pat, you raise some excellent points. I like these discussions quite a bit, sort of in-depth analyses of albums, lyrics and songs, comparing notes, so to speak, with fellow Tull experts. It was a very close vote for me, but I wound up giving it to TW mostly on the strength of it having so many Tull classics, the early live performances of which were very exciting with Glenn and Clive, and of course Ian's wild-eyed flute playing, shabby overcoat, etc.
I see your point on Seal Driver, it is more complex and adventurous than I gave it credit it for, especially with the musical bridge in the middle part. But I've always found it as well as some of the other songs on War Child a little too repetitive and very heavy-handed, although I must admit the heavy-handedness aspect is part of what makes Tull so much fun! Still, War Child sometimes seems overly bombastic to me, even for them, although I am sure that was purposeful given the war theme.
Your comment about This Was minus the Kirk-an (pun intended) flute being no more interesting than other blues/rock records of the time, was excellent, and perhaps you are right about that. I easily could have, and perhaps should have, called this category a tie, but I don't think I would have given it to War Child outright.
The one thing about War Child that has kept it off my turntable more so than other Tull albums is the singing. I like it well enough on some of the songs, like Ladies, Skating Away and Bungle but on others like Seal Driver, War Child and Two Fingers, I have always found it somewhat grating. That is why I called that category a tie, even though Ian was still developing his vocal style on This Was.
I considered calling this entire round a tie, but kept coming back to the sheer number of Tull classics on TW, and the groundbreaking nature of the album at the time, as the determining factors, but by a very small margin.
Jeff
P.S. As with Broadsword, I actually like some of the extra War Child cuts like Rainbow Blues and Paradise Steakhouse better than some of the songs that were included on the album, but for purposes of this exercise, we are not considering extra tracks, only the albums as they originally were released.
I'll give this one to TW. I never heard a blues based album with flute before. The one continuous piece of music was already done with TAAB and let's face it, Tull would be hard pressed to top it.
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
Passion Play all the way. From the opera-like beginnings to the Asian inspired closing edit.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
I'm going to give this one to TW as well, since there was no way in hell (no pun intended) I could follow the entire lyrics through with APP.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
For many people APP is Tull at their finest. Probably not too many feel the same way about TW.
5) How well-sung is the album?
IMO APP is Ian's finest vocal performance - ever.
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
First album for Ian's sax I think. Also John expanded his keyboard sounds for APP. John played a major role on this one.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
Not my personal favorite by any stretch but it must be APP.
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
APP
9) Does the album have a sense of humor?
Agree with Jeff. Got to give to APP.
7-2 APP.
Round Six score so far: Passion Play - 2 votes, (poor) TW - 0 votes.
Interesting read, too. For me, I like the sound of APP on all CD releases, but, I must say for this release and WarChild above all others, MFSL have recreated a sound to die for. Sends me back to 1973-74. Hey!
I missed TM's post until now. (hiding out at the bottom of the last page or maybe I was blinded by the capitals)
Great analysis there, Pat, you raise some excellent points. I like these discussions quite a bit, sort of in-depth analyses of albums, lyrics and songs, comparing notes, so to speak, with fellow Tull experts. It was a very close vote for me, but I wound up giving it to TW mostly on the strength of it having so many Tull classics, the early live performances of which were very exciting with Glenn and Clive, and of course Ian's wild-eyed flute playing, shabby overcoat, etc.
I see your point on Seal Driver, it is more complex and adventurous than I gave it credit it for, especially with the musical bridge in the middle part. But I've always found it as well as some of the other songs on War Child a little too repetitive and very heavy-handed, although I must admit the heavy-handedness aspect is part of what makes Tull so much fun! Still, War Child sometimes seems overly bombastic to me, even for them, although I am sure that was purposeful given the war theme.
Your comment about This Was minus the Kirk-an (pun intended) flute being no more interesting than other blues/rock records of the time, was excellent, and perhaps you are right about that. I easily could have, and perhaps should have, called this category a tie, but I don't think I would have given it to This Was outright.
The one thing about War Child that has kept it off my turntable more so than other Tull albums is the singing. I like it well enough on some of the songs, like Ladies, Skating Away and Bungle but on others like Seal Driver, War Child and Two Fingers, I have always found it somewhat grating. That is why I called that category a tie, even though Ian was still developing his vocal style on This Was.
I considered calling this entire round a tie, but kept coming back to the sheer number of Tull classics on TW, and the groundbreaking nature of the album at the time, as the determining factors, but by a very small margin.
Jeff
P.S. As with Broadsword, I actually like some of the extra War Child cuts like Rainbow Blues and Paradise Steakhouse better than some of the songs that were included on the album, but for purposes of this exercise, we are not considering extra tracks, only the albums as they originally were released.
I'm looking forward to add my vote on this one. Hopefully I will tonite.
BTW Jeff, I think you meant Sea Lion, not Seal Driver.
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #76 on Feb 19, 2010, 6:08pm »
Right, Sea Lion. I made the same mistake three times, first in my original post, then twice in my follow up. I also mistakenly said 'Jeffrey Goes' was on TW, when I meant 'Song for Jeffrey.' And I just noticed now that in the third paragraph, near the end, I meant to say I don't think I would have given it to War Child outright, but mistakenly typed This Was instead. (I just went back and corrected that one, because otherwise it would be confusing.) That's a lot of freakin mistakes.
Recently in another thread I did the same thing, mistakenly typing "Northern Island" when I meant to say Northern Ireland. It's because I type quickly and have a lot to say. Still, I've got to be more careful with proofreading in the future.
Right, Sea Lion. I made the same mistake three times, first in my original post, then twice in my follow up. I also mistakenly said 'Jeffrey Goes' was on TW, when I meant 'Song for Jeffrey.' And I just noticed now that in the third paragraph, near the end, I meant to say I don't think I would have given it to War Child outright, but mistakenly typed This Was instead. (I just went back and corrected that one, because otherwise it would be confusing.) That's a lot of freakin mistakes.
Recently in another thread I did the same thing, mistakenly typing "Northern Island" when I meant to say Northern Ireland. It's because I type quickly and have a lot to say. Still, I've got to be more careful with proofreading in the future.
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Re: Album Wars (This Was) « Reply #78 on Feb 21, 2010, 1:13pm »
This Was Album War Round 7: This Was v. War Child.
I'm going to answer this one in parts as time permits.
As an interesting sidebar, I thought going in I would eventually end up picking This Was as the winner as did Jeff. But so far that doesn't appear to be the case.
1) Does the album break any new ground?
I guess Warchild does in the sense that is was the first Tull album to get tagged with the "Elizabethan" style. But it was probably more so for Ian's stage and album-cover clothing rather than the music which was rather an eclectic mix. But the music continued to evolve as I'll touch on later, and because of that I have to give the edge to Warchild.
(2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
This Was is basically blues with a bit of a twist while Warchild was an amalgam of influences, i.e. English, Scottish, and European vibes wrapped up into the context of rock music. Does that equal adventurous? I don't know but This Was the album that stood out from the crowd for me back in the days when Boston, Chicago and other US bands ruled the airways. This Was the album that made me a Tull fan. Warchild that is.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
Is there anything more simplistic than "my baby left me"? I love some of the lines on This Was, but it just pails in comparison to Warchild.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
This Was enjoyed a revitalization of sorts by the inclusion of it's songs into the live act dating back to '87 and extending well into the new millennium. I believe it's that reason alone that lead me to really enjoy that record - preferring it over Warchild. But still, the fact remains that not one track from TW made it on to any of the first 3 best of's. Warchild on the other hand scored 3 hits with Bungle, Skating Away and Warchild. We can even add 2 more as Rainbow Blues and Glory Row were recorded during the same time period. The album also contains other fan favorites like Back Door Angels, The Third Hoorah and Queen & Country.
So I have to give this one to Warchild as well.
5) How well-sung is the album?
I wonder what was Ian thinking with his vocals on TW? It obviously was a deliberate attempt at a certain sound....certainly not his natural self. Warchild is the clear winner here as well.
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
Sax, glockenspiel, piano accordion, Spanish guitars, and bagpipes. Nuff said.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
I always thought of the Warchild album as being one of the classics in rock & roll. From the menacing front cover with the negative image of Ian to the portrayal of each song by the band members (and others) on the back.
Never cared much for the TW packaging. Warchild again.
8) Production and sound quality of the album
Warchild. 9) Does the album have a sense of humor?
The only song on either album with a semblance of humor to it for me (besides Round) is Two Fingers.
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Time to throw in the towel.
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Interesting read, too.
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