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Post by Morthoron on Apr 24, 2012 22:46:00 GMT -5
Well thanks for the lesson, but I think I can find a legion of Floyd fans who might mension Sid Barrett. Undoubtedly Syd Barrett would be mentioned, but how many will know the series of concerts where Syd was propped up in a corner mumbling insanely while Gilmour did his parts? He did just one album (Pipers at the Gates of Dawn, 1967) and another (Saucerful of Secrets, 1968) where Gilmour was already a full member. Who in their right mind wouldn't consider Gilmour an integral part of the sound of Floyd? Likewise, Mick Abraham is the footnote, not Martin Barre. The reality is that you can parse Tull in so many ways based on when you started listening to the band. There is no argument that the Tull I saw perform the original TAAB in 72 had balls and energy, and a certain style that made them exciting. The good thing is that as the energy waned (after APP), their playing improved, I would argue that the two key elements that made them a better band was the music Anderson provided, and the changing cast. The only change from 72 to 79 was Jeffrey Hammond retiring and John Glascock taking his place, and David Palmer no longer just doing orchestral arrangements (which he had been doing for Tull since 68), but adding portative organ and synth on several albums as well (and composing the stately and sad "Elegy" for Stormwatch). Everyone of their greatest albums from TAAB to Stormwatch had basically the same cast of characters, save for Glascock. What better band? What changing cast? Your revisionism conveniently omits fact. Where do you draw the line, when JHH left, when JG died, seems everyone had no issues with Pegg. I think it is unfair to characterise everyone in the last 20 years as hired players only, especially since many of the "heroes" were hired help too, but no one seemed to care. Not to take away anything from the old John, I think the new John brings a solid talent and skills, he allows Ian to do things differently than before, he is certainly better than Giddings. It just seems people like to live in the past, when new John is replaced, you will miss him, and shit on his replacement. I don't miss much of anyone past 1979, because that's when Ian started his revolving door policy, and became an insuffereable egoist. And if you are honest, you'll admit the music suffered tremendously. Say what you will, but their is appreciable difference in the quality of work from the bands as well as Ian's songwriting and arrangements post-Stormwatch. I do have a soft spot for Dave Pegg, but mostly because I prefer his work in Fairport Convention (who I've seen countless times). The hilarious thing is he kept nonentities like Noyce around for years. TAAB2 is definitely an improvement over something like Dot Com, and slots in well with Secret Language of Birds and Rupi's Dance, where Ian is the central focus from start to finish and each musician plays their assigned parts they were hired to do. There are no extended jams which Ian is not part of, and no noticeable differentiation from one bassist, drummer or keyboardist to the next. And that's fine, all solo albums are pretty much like that. TAAB2 is a fine solo album. There was an interview with IAN with Wakeman, (check you tube),well before TAAB2 was on the scene, when Rick asked him what Ian's favourite Tull was. I found his response interesting, he said the most current, because they had to learn and adopt everything that came before. The music hasn't gotten better. And except for a brief period around Crest of a Knave, the concerts were not nearly as good as the ones I saw pre-"A". You can argue the point all you'd like, but all one need do is look at concert footage to tell the difference. Like the Minstrel in the Gallery clips I provided. It is quite evident. I understand that some MB fans miss him, but many of us card carrying Tull Freaks don't, I'd welcome him back, although I don't see a scenario where that can happen. As I read the reviews of shows by respected members of this board, I don't see many who are missing Martin. It is mostly the ones with an agenda who take cheap shots at Florien. No swipe at Florian, but as a guitarist I can tell you that nearly every riff was borrowed from Barre for TAAB2. There's not a shred of Florian's own style evident in the album. So what's the point? History will show JT=IA, with a series of footnotes relating to the other 20 some odd supporting cast, some bigger than others, with an extra bigger asterisk for Barre, who is good, legendary in the minds of many, but he is one of many, not the one and only (think Ian). History will show Tull making several landmark progressive and prog-folk albums in the 70s, Ian with a new cast of characters trying to revise his sound in order to stay hip in the early 80s (and failing miserably), Tull stealing a Grammy from Metallica in 1987, and not much else afterward but Ian's strained vocals that are often painful to listen to. Who hasn't been to a show in the last 30 years that hasn't winced on several occasions? These days, it's better to listen to Ian during acoustic sets. I go to the bathroom if he tries to sing "Songs from the Wood". I remember seeing his lounge tour to support Rupi's Dance, and a whole row of people all cringeing simultaneously while he was singing "A Hand of Thumbs". But hey, I can always use a history lesson, as I am the first to admit that I have only seen them for the past 42 years, I am sure I missed something, right?!? I don't know what it was you listening to for 42 years. So yeah, I think you missed a great deal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 23:50:22 GMT -5
Yes, I think that expresses what "Tull is" quite elegantly. A great band. I was comparing drumming styles and I think these two clips show the difference between Barriemore Barlow and other, later, Tull drummers (in this case, Gerry Conway) . The difference is shocking, and it shows really what Tull (the entity) had in the 70s. Again, pay close attention to the drums (also the remarkable Martin Barre): Tull, 1976Tull, 1982:Ouch. Ouch is right. I never understood why Ian would settle for such things? at least when Mark Craney replaced Barrimore yet different it was still quality drumming and kinda gave Tull a new edge. How could you go from Clive, to Barrimore, to Craney..to that? At least he kind of upgraded shortly after.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 23:58:24 GMT -5
Tony Williams from Steelers Wheels (stuck in the middle with you) Was Sad when they had to replace John but my point was Ian and Martin's interplay. One of the big reasons I love tull in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 0:00:28 GMT -5
if that dosen't take you back I don't know what will.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 0:01:54 GMT -5
;D
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Post by jtul07 on Apr 25, 2012 6:56:25 GMT -5
Maybe it was too many of these? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Maybe it was Jonathan's Classical background? A graduate of the Royal Academy of Music in London, Jonathan enjoyed his first success with the British pop group Take That, for whom he supplied bass in the studio in 1993. During this period Jonathan worked closely with producer Joey Negro aka Dave Lee.
In 1995, Jonathan met and was asked to play on Jethro Tull guitarist Martin Barre's solo album The Meeting. This became a stepping stone to meeting Tull frontman Ian Anderson, who subsequently asked Jonathan to join him on his Divinities world tour later that year. A few months later Dave Pegg announced his retirement from Jethro Tull. Jonathan was a natural first choice and joined the band in August 1995. During his eleven year stint with the band, he travelled the globe, recorded a (few) studio albums plus a few more live ones.
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Post by tootull on Apr 25, 2012 8:22:04 GMT -5
Fantastic! Take me back to '72. Well here..... and for a little taste of John Barrie and Martins blatant contributions see 3:53 onward Darin Very kind, thank you. This is the start for me, the magic of 1972, Tull in full hair. Hare? Long List Jethro Tull Live Thick As A Brick 1972 8mm longlist.org/jethro+tull+live+thick+as+a+brick+1972+8mm
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Post by tootull on Apr 25, 2012 8:23:51 GMT -5
1: Ian=Tull 2: No he isn't 1: Yes he is 2: No he isn't, I can prove it! 1: No you can't 2: Yes I can! 1: No you can't 2: This is futile! 1: No it isn't Yes he is FUNNY!
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Post by My God on Apr 25, 2012 9:15:20 GMT -5
Ian Anderson = Jethro Tull Ian Anderson is the best part of the trip, the trip....best part. Well said, tootull! Stretches moments into slow burn passion play.
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Rrrrrrrray
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Post by Rrrrrrrray on Apr 25, 2012 9:59:46 GMT -5
Ouch is right. I never understood why Ian would settle for such things? at least when Mark Craney replaced Barrimore yet different it was still quality drumming and kinda gave Tull a new edge. How could you go from Clive, to Barrimore, to Craney..to that? At least he kind of upgraded shortly after. Well...however bad and un Barriemore Barlow worthy you consider Gerry Conway to be he has a resume' that shall we say...is impressive. Now I will agree that nothing I know him to have played on to even this point approached the arena rock pomposity of Minstrel in the Gallery, not a song or album I consider a particular feather in Ian's cap, so conceivably he was lacking in this regard, I would be less than inclined to make an assessment of anyone off the soundstage given to me on that YouTube clip, and he comported himself well enough that I would consider Broadsword one of Tull's ten best, though barely, maybe more like 12. Most will know Conway is Fairport Convention's drummer for the past...just might be 15 years by now. Prior to that, in fact stll when they reconvene here and there, the drummer for one of the challengers to FC's throne as the most influential Brit folk rock group, Pentangle. Or on the one off and utterly brilliant Fotheringay album, with Sandy Denny and other scene luminaries. Now does he know something about all of their families, some precious pvt information? I think not. Indeed he reappears with Ian on SLOB, maybe on Rupi, can't be arsed to look. I think he might be on a track or two on Rock Island and some of the anniversary set tracks. The man is not a hack and indeed is likely better known than Barrie Barlow, in part because he never left the playing field for extended stretches, and appears to have left Tull without signifigant psychological damage from Ian Anderson. Additionally his skills have seen him gain employment with Cat Stevens for six years, and the third spoke on the legendary Brit Folk wheel, Steeleye Span. Seems to me that if you look at your Nick Drake records, which folks glom onto in these past 15 years, now giving those records more credit than they are due, but at least credit, you will see Gerry's name, though again, those albums have got to be a good twenty feet away, I ain't botherin. I will always respond when I perceive a force feeding of which period of Ian Anderson's construct is undeniably the best, (because, there isn't), which musicians who have performed in the ranks were clearly the most competent, (because I just don't think its that dead evident)though if I never see another gizmotron keyboard or drumset that will be just fine, or the certainty with which folks feel they can instruct Ian Anderson to direct his craft. Always reminded of that scene in Braveheart with Edward 1 after the sacking of York, when his son, who was left in charge, has a friend over who thinks it within his influence to offer the King his advice. RIP Patrick McGoohan, a hand very well played.
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Post by TM on Apr 25, 2012 10:11:09 GMT -5
Ouch is right. I never understood why Ian would settle for such things? at least when Mark Craney replaced Barrimore yet different it was still quality drumming and kinda gave Tull a new edge. How could you go from Clive, to Barrimore, to Craney..to that? At least he kind of upgraded shortly after. It's as if Ian intentionally made the drums insignificant in order to diminish Barrie's contributions to the band.
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Post by TM on Apr 25, 2012 10:16:42 GMT -5
Ouch is right. I never understood why Ian would settle for such things? at least when Mark Craney replaced Barrimore yet different it was still quality drumming and kinda gave Tull a new edge. How could you go from Clive, to Barrimore, to Craney..to that? At least he kind of upgraded shortly after. Well...however bad and un Barriemore Barlow worthy you consider Gerry Conway to be he has a resume' that shall we say...is impressive. Now I will agree that nothing I know him to have played on to even this point approached the arena rock pomposity of Minstrel in the Gallery, not a song or album I consider a particular feather in Ian's cap, so conceivably he was lacking in this regard, I would be less than inclined to make an assessment of anyone off the soundstage given to me on that YouTube clip, and he comported himself well enough that I would consider Broadsword one of Tull's ten best, though barely, maybe more like 12. Most will know Conway is Fairport Convention's drummer for the past...just might be 15 years by now. Prior to that, in fact stll when they reconvene here and there, the drummer for one of the challengers to FC's throne as the most influential Brit folk rock group, Pentangle. Or on the one off and utterly brilliant Fotheringay album, with Sandy Denny and other scene luminaries. Now does he know something about all of their families, some precious pvt information? I think not. Indeed he reappears with Ian on SLOB, maybe on Rupi, can't be arsed to look. I think he might be on a track or two on Rock Island and some of the anniversary set tracks. The man is not a hack and indeed is likely better known than Barrie Barlow, in part because he never left the playing field for extended stretches, and appears to have left Tull without signifigant psychological damage from Ian Anderson. Additionally his skills have seen him gain employment with Cat Stevens for six years, and the third spoke on the legendary Brit Folk wheel, Steeleye Span. Seems to me that if you look at your Nick Drake records, which folks glom onto in these past 15 years, now giving those records more credit than they are due, but at least credit, you will see Gerry's name, though again, those albums have got to be a good twenty feet away, I ain't botherin. I will always respond when I perceive a force feeding of which period of Ian Anderson's construct is undeniably the best, (because, there isn't), which musicians who have performed in the ranks were clearly the most competent, (because I just don't think its that dead evident)though if I never see another gizmotron keyboard or drumset that will be just fine, or the certainty with which folks feel they can instruct Ian Anderson to direct his craft. Always reminded of that scene in Braveheart with Edward 1 after the sacking of York, when his son, who was left in charge, has a friend over who thinks it within his influence to offer the King his advice. RIP Patrick McGoohan, a hand very well played. Gerry is a fine drummer, but just not the right player to cover Clive and Barrie's work. He's perfect for Fairport and he's absolutely fine for Ian's solo stuff too.
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Post by TM on Apr 25, 2012 10:17:55 GMT -5
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Post by Koba the Cat on Apr 25, 2012 10:33:18 GMT -5
I don't care if Gerry Conway drummed for Jesus Christ, with Tull he just plain sucked. 'Thud thud thud....cymbol. Thud thud thud...cymbol'. I could play that on a coffee can and sound better. Totally leaden drum playing.
Regarding Jonathan Noyce, if I am not mistaken it was Martin Barre who introduced him to Ian for the Divinities album and tour, so if you don't like him, blame Martin too.
Yes, watching Youtube videos of Tull pre-'A' or better yet pre-Broadsword shows a much livelier stage band, but in all fairness, Ian was much younger as well. You can't really compare then and now fairly because it is an older, different Ian leading the latter versions of Tull.The boots of the Under Wraps tour are quite lively, and I found the Roots tour to be particularly excellent. The downward slide for me started with the '99 Dot Com tour, when Ian chose to celebrate and highlight the 30th anniversary of Stand Up more than present his new material. That for me was the downward 'spiral' (pun intended) into Tull's own version of the post-Brian Wilson nostalgic-era Beach Boys of the 70's that only played the hits and stopped being an important studio band.
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Post by tootull on Apr 25, 2012 10:42:41 GMT -5
"Minstrel in the Gallery, not a song or album I consider a particular feather in Ian's cap" See me cry, laugh, cry. Kicked in the favourite album.
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Post by Bassackwards on Apr 25, 2012 10:43:27 GMT -5
Well put Darin, Bravo!!! I would only add that I would bet it took a great deal of spine to approach this on his own terms and i think this is alluded to in "A Change of Horses". And to Steve H,H, Great point about the youthfull mindset we brought to the original Brick. We'll never get that back, the new work should, I believe, be enjoyed, or not, mainly on it's own terms with proper nod to the original. And for all the input of the band members to the original which was large, remember Ian wrote the lyrics and played at 3 of the 5 main instruments. I do like the additional idea of trying to make this a very live album with very little studio gimmickery ( not that there's anything wrong with that), an interesting change of direction.
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Post by Koba the Cat on Apr 25, 2012 10:51:12 GMT -5
I'd also like to add that Ian had/has a history of hiring people based on personality and not musicianship. Jeffrey Hammond was one, as was Maartin Allcock (he was a good musician on strings, not the keyboards he was hired for), and probably a few others. Jeffrey was a great 'Tull' personality and his contributions to the personality of the band were great, as was his stage presence, but he was not someone who would be hired to play bass for someone as a studio musician. Does he even have a musical credit outside of Tull? Bet you he has zero guest appearances on other artist's recordings.
I have no issue with the great house cleaning of 1980. Barrie and John Evan were great, but people have to evolve and move on and that's what Ian did. Success is not guaranteed and he had mixed success after 1980, but that has more to do with Ian I think than with whom was in JT at any particular point.
I have always 'cheered' for musicians to stay with JT, because I like musical continuity, but Martin Barre is 65. He's done his time in the band and if he no longer wants to work with Ian or vice versa, they shouldn't be forced to. They've lasted together longer than most marriages and didn't even need to stay together for the sake of the kids! (although some fans are acting like kids demanding that they do).
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Post by flutestobranches on Apr 25, 2012 11:01:55 GMT -5
Even Ian Anderson himself woudn't say TAAB2=TULL I'm sure everyone at your record store was qualified enough to know the difference though What's a record store? Oddly enough, when I bought the deluxe edition of TAAB2 in my local FYE store, the price sticker read: "Jethro Tull: Thick as a Brick 2!" David
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Post by Bassackwards on Apr 25, 2012 11:07:53 GMT -5
That's unfair TT!!!
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Post by tootull on Apr 25, 2012 12:15:57 GMT -5
I'm howlin'
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 15:13:11 GMT -5
I'd also like to add that Ian had/has a history of hiring people based on personality and not musicianship. Jeffrey Hammond was one, as was Maartin Allcock (he was a good musician on strings, not the keyboards he was hired for), and probably a few others. Jeffrey was a great 'Tull' personality and his contributions to the personality of the band were great, as was his stage presence, but he was not someone who would be hired to play bass for someone as a studio musician. Does he even have a musical credit outside of Tull? Bet you he has zero guest appearances on other artist's recordings. I have no issue with the great house cleaning of 1980. Barrie and John Evan were great, but people have to evolve and move on and that's what Ian did. Success is not guaranteed and he had mixed success after 1980, but that has more to do with Ian I think than with whom was in JT at any particular point.. My whole post is not directed at you Koba, you were just the last one of many to post on this subject.......so with all due respect: I beg to differ on your first point. No one was hired on the strength on their personality. Jeffery was Ian's best friend. The core band from 71 one on to 76 was one based on long standing friendships. They had already been a band. This is Ian and his "hired hands" John, Barrie, and Jeffery in 65 or 6 Ian wanted to work with people that thought the same way he did, same background, influences and motivations. John Evan hadn't racked up any outside work credentials either before or since, doesn't make someone a great player or not. Ian would not play with others either until late 80s.....and even then was insecure about it. Jeffery was pressed into service by Ian who bought him a bass on Christmas 70. They then went staight into the studio to record "Aqualung" He must've thought he could handle the job and being someone he could trust and work with was more important than finding some "hot" player with an unknown personality to then spend all their waking hours together, in the studio and on the road. As far as other people here, railing about getting a history lesson, and many others referring to the revolving line up of hired hands? All of the band members took the same pay.....up until John Glascock's joining the band. He WAS the first hired hand. Stated by Martin and Barrie in the DVD "Jethro Tull: Their Fully Authorized Story" If you don't have this, you should, there's a lot of info about Tull on here that you may not know! You can augment your history right here! Seems that Jeffery's leaving was a pretty big deal to Anderson and really changed the dynamic within the band that ultimately led to the 1980 situation. EVERYONE was ready for a change. Ian did not clean house, but he knew he was in for a change. Terry Ellis created the headline about the sacking for promotional purposes only. Best thing Ian did at the time was hire Dave Pegg, one of the best bass players and overall musicians that have been in Tull. He was "hired" by Ian. (He also dishes the best dirt on the aforementioned DVD, he's hilarious, and sounds like he pissed in Terry Ellis drink in 84) I think his contribution was very musical and lent much needed humor and personality to projects to come. I first "saw" the band in 1971. I was inspired to go because I was listening previously to "Stand Up" when Aqualung hit the airwaves. My friends said "You've gotta see this band live!" I was, in one way (and still am) very disappointed not to see Cornick and Bunker, who I considered a big part of Tulls sound. So they had just "changed" into a different band! I had no knowledge of any of this "inside baseball" crap and didn't care at the time because what I saw when I got to the Forum blew me right the fuck away! I remain "afflicted" to this day. Arguing about the past members and new ones is not something I'm interested in. I have a lot of respect for most all of the true hired hands, since 80. BUT Martin Barre was not a hired hand and was not Ian's "underling", he is the last member of Jethro Tull to have played with Ian.......in any context. And that is notable. THAT SAID!! I have my tickets! and because I'm the age I am, I don't wish the earth to spin any faster....but I can't wait for October. BTW Anyone know how many songs Ian wrote about or for other band members? Can you name them??? Darin Cody
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Post by jtul07 on Apr 25, 2012 15:36:21 GMT -5
(1) "Jeffrey Goes To Leicester Square" (2) "A Song for Jeffrey"
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Oldghost
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Post by Oldghost on Apr 25, 2012 15:50:11 GMT -5
(1) "Jeffrey Goes To Leicester Square"(2) "A Song for Jeffrey" 3.) For Michael Collins, Jeffrey And Me 4.) Big Riff And Mando 5.) Like A Tall Thin Girl
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 16:10:38 GMT -5
(1) "Jeffrey Goes To Leicester Square"(2) "A Song for Jeffrey" 3.) For Michael Collins, Jeffrey And Me 4.) Big Riff And Mando 5.) Like A Tall Thin Girl 6. We Used To Know 7. Look into The Sun 8. And Further On 9. Slow Marching Band 10. With You There To Help Me
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Post by jtul07 on Apr 25, 2012 16:14:01 GMT -5
3.) For Michael Collins, Jeffrey And Me 4.) Big Riff And Mando 5.) Like A Tall Thin Girl 6. We Used To Know 7. Look into The Sun 8. And Further On 9. Slow Marching Band 10. With You There To Help Me Amazing!
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