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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 20:28:29 GMT -5
No need to respond promptly A couple of awesome board members sent some bootlegs to me as well (there are many awesome board members here of course) which consist of my only Tull bootlegs, one of them being a Passion Play concert at the LA Forum in July 1973, I wonder if you have the same ones--very very exceptional recording. Sort of gives the album a whole new life to hear it live. The "low" quality of the recording really puts into perspective the power the act had in person.
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Post by Mothfairy on Aug 25, 2013 19:53:13 GMT -5
True...it adds to it. I don't need perfection but...Ian Anderson's voice is damn near perfect...as I believe I stated in the original post, could be just my opinion but I think this is the peak for his voice. APP's vocals sound deeper live...the vocals sound just as good if not better in some ways, than the studio version.
The person who sent you yours could very well be the person who sent mine, so I'll bet they are the same. Heehee. Mine only say 'A Passion Play Live 1973' on them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 17:00:50 GMT -5
True...it adds to it. I don't need perfection but...Ian Anderson's voice is damn near perfect...as I believe I stated in the original post, could be just my opinion but I think this is the peak for his voice. APP's vocals sound deeper live...the vocals sound just as good if not better in some ways, than the studio version. The person who sent you yours could very well be the person who sent mine, so I'll bet they are the same. Heehee. Mine only say 'A Passion Play Live 1973' on them. Very true, his voice was incredibly expressive during the tour. The one thing I would compare it to is Ian's vocal performance on the "Baker Street Muse" track--incredibly dynamic and both assertive and introspective. The theatricality of the Passion Play composition easily lends itself to Tull's style of live performances.
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Post by Mothfairy on Aug 31, 2013 15:48:27 GMT -5
Yes! I was just listening to Baker St and thinking how this is one album comparable to APP.
I didn't think about that, the theatricality and I don't believe I've ever that word before. ha!
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Post by Morthoron on Sept 1, 2013 0:55:47 GMT -5
How odd it is to find something in context with Jethro Tull, and A Passion Play in particular, while doing research for my second book, the events of which take place in the 14th century. And the reference material I was using came from the 14th century as well!
I was researching a poem by William Langland (b. 1332 - d. 1400) titled "The Vision Concerning Piers Plowman" (a famous 14th century work of allegorical satire), and the text I was using referenced an old and anonymous English morality play "Hickscorner" printed by Wynken de Worde (who died in 1534, and was partner of John Caxton, the first printer in England).
A word in the reference material immediately struck me. Here is the section of the "Hickscorner" play in question:
What, sirs, I tell you my name is Freewill, I may choose whether I do good or ill; But for all that I will do as me list. My condition ye know not, perdé , I can fight, chide, and be merry; Full soon of my company ye would be weary An ye knew all. What, fill the cup and make good cheer, I trow I have a noble here!
Why is this so goddamned important, you ask? Or are you saying I've gone mad?
Well, there has been a long debate regarding the meaning of "Magus Perdé " in the final part of A Passion Play. After researching the word further based on the usage in the play, I can say unequivocally that "perdé " in this instance means "by God".
When the character says "My condition ye know not, Perdé ", he is, in effect, using a mild expletive as emphasis. He is saying "My condition ye know not, by God!"
Perdé is cognate with Middle English spellings of the same word, such as "perdie" or "pardie": 1200- 50; late Middle English pardie, Middle English parde < Old French par De < Latin per Deum by God.
Now, many folks say the word "magus" means magician or wizard; however, the original meaning comes from Persia to define the Zoroastrian priest caste (hence in the bible the "Magi" are wise men, not wizards).
So, Magus Perdé most likely means "priest by/of God". Telling a priest of God to "take your hand from off the chain" may infer back to the anti-religious, anti-clerical rhetoric of Aqualung. Priests of the Anglican or Catholic persuasion do not accept reincarnation, which of course is what Ian is referring to in that section of A Passion Play.
Therefore, I wonder if Ian did not trip across this "morality play" (which grew out of the English tradition of 14th and 15th century "mystery plays" and "miracle plays") when doing a bit of research on his "Passion Play".
Bah, I've stayed up too long with this shit! I'm going to bed.
P.S. I think the Ministry of Information needs to update their information regarding APP. If they need a thesis, I can send it to them. ;P
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Post by Mothfairy on Sept 1, 2013 8:24:19 GMT -5
Morthoron! You've solved the mystery. This is fantastic. As I said somewhere in the beginning of this thread...I have got a pretty good grip on the album...except not ever finding out who Perde was and the ones who have done an interpretation or thesis say they can't find the word Perde. I just checked and I'm sure I've read the Ministry's analysis but I've read others as well. It looks like, I could be mistaken, Ministry touches on the definition 'by God' but it looks like it goes on to suggest other means, like, "Oh no that first one wasn't right" and the other sites...I've seen some pretty interesting interpretations of Perde that I really don't think they were even close.
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Post by Morthoron on Sept 1, 2013 11:50:43 GMT -5
Morthoron! You've solved the mystery. This is fantastic. As I said somewhere in the beginning of this thread...I have got a pretty good grip on the album...except not ever finding out who Perde was and the ones who have done an interpretation or thesis say they can't find the word Perde. I just checked and I'm sure I've read the Ministry's analysis but I've read others as well. It looks like, I could be mistaken, Ministry touches on the definition 'by God' but it looks like it goes on to suggest other means, like, "Oh no that first one wasn't right" and the other sites...I've seen some pretty interesting interpretations of Perde that I really don't think they were even close. Thanks, Moth! I know the idea of perdé was bantered about to mean "by God" on the Ministry of Information site, but they never seemed to come up with any definitive theory (as you noticed). But the preponderance of evidence, based on an old English "morality play" no less, with the word perdé used in the actual context that someone from that era would use, seems to indicate a much stronger basis for "by God" than previously assumed. And the fact that reincarnation is not an acceptable tenet of the Church of England, gives credence that the line Magus Perdé, take your hand from off the chainis a demand from Ian that the Church loose the chains that bind religion to other concepts, particularly when one looks at the lyrics that follow: The passengers upon the ferry crossing, waiting to be born, renew the pledge of life's long song rise to the reveille horn. -and- Here am I! Roll the stone away from the dark into ever-day.It would seem that Ian is equating the resurrection of Jesus to the reincarnation of Ronnie Pilgrim.
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Post by Mothfairy on Sept 3, 2013 11:33:06 GMT -5
I can see how some who analyzed the album would get to Perde and just become flustered. I was beginning to think some thought Ian or someone had just made it up. Or they would arrive to the closest word, Perdre. And conclude that it must be that...it must a typo.
Forty years later, we're back on the right track.
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Post by Morthoron on Sept 4, 2013 22:46:05 GMT -5
I can see how some who analyzed the album would get to Perde and just become flustered. I was beginning to think some thought Ian or someone had just made it up. Or they would arrive to the closest word, Perdre. And conclude that it must be that...it must a typo. Forty years later, we're back on the right track. It seems the most plausible theory regarding Magus Perdé. I have not heard one better. I would just like another English Major or medievalist researcher to concur with the findings.
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Prompter
Ethnic Piano Accordian-ist
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Post by Prompter on Sept 5, 2013 6:36:02 GMT -5
As an English Major, I wholeheartedly agree with your theory. I sort of guessed myself that perdé has to be some form of the modern French "par Dieu", but never thought of it in the context you went on to present: This all sounds very plausible. Kudos to you for your effort!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 22:59:18 GMT -5
I can see how some who analyzed the album would get to Perde and just become flustered. I was beginning to think some thought Ian or someone had just made it up. Or they would arrive to the closest word, Perdre. And conclude that it must be that...it must a typo. Forty years later, we're back on the right track. It seems the most plausible theory regarding Magus Perdé. I have not heard one better. I would just like another English Major or medievalist researcher to concur with the findings. Sorry Greg, that Im not. BUT When APP came out, my girlfriend and I poured through a ten pound colombia encyclopedia and a lesser size Dictionary for an entire evening. We had a blast, it was really fun and when we were done we had a pretty good basic understanding of what the play was about. I think I fired off a couple of questions to my parents that had a laugh at at Ian's twists on "witticisms" like "the sore thumb screams aloud". Surprisingly my mother explained the "Silver Cord". I do remember being left with the impression that Magus Perde was an agent that had the power of both sides and once the realization had been made by Ronnie "here's the everlasting rub, neither am I good or bad, I gave up my halo for a horn, and the horn for the hat I once had." He/she had then to just exercise his or her right to go through it all again. Reincarnation. something that the church actually did embrace at one time, long ago. Of course all of my Tull friends at the time thought I was nuts when I told them this. A few of them just wanted to know when Tull was going to be a rock band again ...lol In 1973 it was a great realization that 1. Ian actually meant something when he wrote a song. 2. I actually enjoyed learning things that weren't assigned to me. (But I'd already been at that with music and art soo...maybe that doesn't count) 3. And finding the meaning to something was as easy as picking up a book and digging a little. That was in the "old" days. Now that we have the electronic highway of info.........no excuse. Most things I don't understand in Ian's lyrics are usually regional type things but easily obtained with a few mouse clicks. Greg, I think your find is pretty amazing. Maybe a coincidence, maybe something Ian came across, maybe in a different form? I seem to remember The Ministry relied a lot on Dante's Inferno by way of explanation of Ian's references, yet Ian states he never read it. So there must be intermediary works that sparked Ian's thoughts. Also says a lot about education these days, or even my day. Never assigned Milton or Hienlien in high school. Nice work though Darin Cody
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Post by Biggles on Sept 11, 2013 23:06:39 GMT -5
As far as APP goes or mentioning any other Jethro Tull album other than "AQUALUNG" in public. I've always gotten a look as if I recounted sighting a UFO. So, I keep my mouth shut and enjoy APP, TOTROR, MITG, etc.. privately.
The A Passion Play tour was a fantastic live experience for me twice! Cobo Hall, Detroit, MI.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 10:19:24 GMT -5
As far as APP goes or mentioning any other Jethro Tull album other than "AQUALUNG" in public. I've always gotten a look as if I recounted sighting a UFO. So, I keep my mouth shut and enjoy APP, TOTROR, MITG, etc.. privately. The A Passion Play tour was a fantastic live experience for me twice! Cobo Hall, Detroit, MI. Right, it's interesting how the album sales and tour did so well, but has been hushed into a cult classic.
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Post by Morthoron on Sept 13, 2013 20:36:18 GMT -5
It seems the most plausible theory regarding Magus Perdé. I have not heard one better. I would just like another English Major or medievalist researcher to concur with the findings. Sorry Greg, that Im not. BUT When APP came out, my girlfriend and I poured through a ten pound colombia encyclopedia and a lesser size Dictionary for an entire evening. We had a blast, it was really fun and when we were done we had a pretty good basic understanding of what the play was about. I think I fired off a couple of questions to my parents that had a laugh at at Ian's twists on "witticisms" like "the sore thumb screams aloud". Surprisingly my mother explained the "Silver Cord". I do remember being left with the impression that Magus Perde was an agent that had the power of both sides and once the realization had been made by Ronnie "here's the everlasting rub, neither am I good or bad, I gave up my halo for a horn, and the horn for the hat I once had." He/she had then to just exercise his or her right to go through it all again. Reincarnation. something that the church actually did embrace at one time, long ago. Of course all of my Tull friends at the time thought I was nuts when I told them this. A few of them just wanted to know when Tull was going to be a rock band again ...lol In 1973 it was a great realization that 1. Ian actually meant something when he wrote a song. 2. I actually enjoyed learning things that weren't assigned to me. (But I'd already been at that with music and art soo...maybe that doesn't count) 3. And finding the meaning to something was as easy as picking up a book and digging a little. That was in the "old" days. Now that we have the electronic highway of info.........no excuse. Most things I don't understand in Ian's lyrics are usually regional type things but easily obtained with a few mouse clicks. Greg, I think your find is pretty amazing. Maybe a coincidence, maybe something Ian came across, maybe in a different form? I seem to remember The Ministry relied a lot on Dante's Inferno by way of explanation of Ian's references, yet Ian states he never read it. So there must be intermediary works that sparked Ian's thoughts. Also says a lot about education these days, or even my day. Never assigned Milton or Hienlien in high school. Nice work though Darin Cody *Pulls a copy of Dante's Divina Commedia from the shelf* Having read Dante extensively over time, I don't see any relation between the great poem and A Passion Play, save that they both provide an allegorical view of the afterlife. Dante would be aghast at Ian's perception of life after death (and ultimate reincarnation) -- the stern 14th poet would probably demand Ian be burned at the stake for blasphemy. Dante blended Thomas Aquinas' Platonic Scholasticism, with a dash of courtly love, some newly acquired philosophical beliefs imported from Moorish Islam and Ptolemaic astronomy. It would be a stretch to assign anything Ian wrote as referencing Dante. If Ian claimed he never read Dante, I believe him. Ian's vision is far more cynical and English. But there are some funny aspects of The Divine Comedy that many people aren't aware of. Like the fact Dante placed most of his enemies in Hell (including a couple popes), and don't we all wish that every once in a while?
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Post by Mothfairy on Sept 13, 2013 22:51:45 GMT -5
I couldn't believe that the word 'fart' was in Dante's Inferno.
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Post by Michael Crowe on Sept 13, 2013 23:53:36 GMT -5
I couldn't believe that the word 'fart' was in Dante's Inferno. But you're glad it was.
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Post by Mothfairy on Sept 14, 2013 0:12:23 GMT -5
hahahaha
Oh my god. Seriously between here and FB every Tull board dude is making me laugh tonight. Not every, but a few.
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Post by Morthoron on Sept 14, 2013 18:43:59 GMT -5
I couldn't believe that the word 'fart' was in Dante's Inferno. Medieval people weren't as hung up on some things (like bodily functions) as we are. There's a funny part in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales where a parish clerk kisses the ass of a carpenter's wife as she hangs her naked bottom out a window. Nicholas, who is the other lover of the carpenter's wife (she got around, obviously), is an earthy fellow: he “leet fle a fart / As greet as it had been a thonder-dent”, after he had "risen for to pisse". Have you ever seen an Hieronymus Bosch painting? They are littered with obscene images. My favorite is Bosch's depiction of hell wherein a bad musician spends his eternity in Hades blowing a bugle out of his butt. Even someone like the very religious Martin Luther believed in the efficacy of farting. Many of his writings contain the idea of "farting at the Devil" to drive him back to hell. You can't make stuff up like this.
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Post by Mothfairy on Sept 19, 2013 11:24:55 GMT -5
Wow...so they were all kind of like, "Wherever you may be...let your air go free" Letting your air go free, is a good way to be.
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Post by Morthoron on Oct 1, 2013 23:12:52 GMT -5
Wow...so they were all kind of like, "Wherever you may be...let your air go free" Letting your air go free, is a good way to be. Which brings us, in a most flatulent manner, right back to Tull: Let me make you a present of song As the wise man breaks wind and is gone While the fool with the hour-glass is cooking his goose And the nursery rhyme winds along.
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Post by Mothfairy on Oct 3, 2013 21:42:33 GMT -5
Wow...so they were all kind of like, "Wherever you may be...let your air go free" Letting your air go free, is a good way to be. Which brings us, in a most flatulent manner, right back to Tull: Let me make you a present of song As the wise man breaks wind and is gone While the fool with the hour-glass is cooking his goose And the nursery rhyme winds along.I heard the words before but didn't realize them...interesting.. my 4 year old also has a fart song but it's of course not as eloquent.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 2:34:49 GMT -5
Holly, the comedic effect of your comment about the Dante's Inferno trivia was amplified in that it directly followed a very interesting and learned conversation between Darin and Greg.
Keep up the good work everyone!
Good info Darin and Greg!
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Passion Play Fan
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Still looking for someone I can trust... with whom to leave my underpants.
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Post by Passion Play Fan on Nov 27, 2013 21:07:40 GMT -5
Let's show APP some love! Being a newly arrived participant in this happily thriving online community of Tullites, I must acknowledge no small amount of genuine excitement, as I come stumbling across this topic. As my self-affixed handle rather shamelessly announces, I've long been a dyed-in-the-wool devotee to this particular album. On the occasion of this 40th anniversary year of "A Passion Play", it only seems appropriate to share a few of my thoughts with the only people on the planet who might give a damn about hearing any of it. While I was blissfully enamored of the splendid procession of previous Tull releases (1968 thru 1972), APP exerted a very special spell upon my unsuspecting sensibilities -- back in those mist-laden days, when a boyhood friend of mine sat me down (with some high-quality headsets) beside his rather fancy stereo unit, on that fateful afternoon in 1973, with lyrics mesmerizingly close at hand. (But then, as all of you know, lyrics have always been an essential element of Tull's unparalleled brilliance!) I don't in any way exaggerate when I say that this album GRABBED me, it resonated quite forcefully within my yearning / searching teenage consciousness, and its macabre beauty, its Celtic musical flourishes, and its tongue-in-cheek irreverence has surely haunted me ever since. Of course, for so many years, I was completely clueless about the array of difficulties inherent in bringing this record into being, or about the ruthless thrashing this overall project endured at the spiteful hands of so many small-minded music critics of the day. All I knew was this: I adored this album to the point of gleeful distraction. And I still do!!! Yes, I've taken note of Ian's tectonic shift in attitude regarding this work, which used to make me a bit sad to dwell upon. Still, I am eternally appreciative of his having brought APP back to the group's live show playlists with "Passion Jig", along with the release of so much related material within the rightfully celebrated "25th Anniversary" & "Night Cap" sets. Here's the karmic root for all of us: we all have our personal favorites where Tull's catalog is concerned, and we can all enthusiastically support one another in our undying love for musical milestones such as "Benefit", or "TAAB", or "Minstrel In The Gallery", or "Stormwatch", or "Broadsword And The Beast", or "Crest Of A Knave", or even the best freakin' Christmas album ever made by anybody!... Or any other Tull album woefully unnamed here, out of the need for brevity. I love them all, as do all of us, I'm sure... Best wishes to everyone, as the holidays loom ever closer, and take with you my sincere thanks for listening. -- Passion Play Fan
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Post by Misteman 4 on Nov 30, 2013 21:04:35 GMT -5
A Passion Play is and has always been in the top 5 tull albums for me. I started listening to tull in 1974 just as "WarChild" was released. The only album at that point that I wasn't crazy about was "This Was", and it still to this day is the only tull/Anderson album I never owned. That being said...it just seemed to me that APP was tull at it's creative best and ian anderson singing the best of his career. Don't expect to ever hear any of it during any of tull/Anderson live shows, but with ian anything is possible.
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