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Post by Morthoron on Jul 13, 2010 22:46:54 GMT -5
I bow to the fundamental wisdom of your argument. But...
Although TOTRNR is currently leading handily 3-1 on overall scoring, I believe the two most crucial questions are
Does the album break any new ground? and How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
These two questions truly indicate the greatness of an album, and we find 'This Was' wins by a landslide. That is, of course, If one were truly trying to find the greatest album. ;D
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Post by tootull on Jul 14, 2010 10:19:04 GMT -5
TOTR&R or This Was
In this case This Was gets the nod just because the band was old before their time on the This Was cover. Come on - They were Too Old To R&R when Tull started. blah!
hahaha I'm mad. - evil laugh! Hello Jeff!
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Post by Nonfatman on Jul 14, 2010 10:24:23 GMT -5
TOTR&R or This Was In this case This Was gets the nod just because the band was old before their time on the This Was cover. Come on - They were Too Old To R&R when Tull started. blah! hahaha I'm mad. - evil laugh! Hello Jeff! Hello, JohnN, it's great that we shall be hearing from you more often, now that your stint at Hoffman's place is done. Thanks too(tull) for your vote on TW v. TOTRNR. You have just made Greg (Morthoron) a very happy man. And mazel tov on becoming a Mighty Marimba-ist with your 250th (!) post here. Round 9 score so far: TOTRNR- 3 votes, TW - 2 votesThis is going to be a close one! Jeff
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Bogenbroom
One of the Youngest of the Family
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Post by Bogenbroom on Aug 13, 2010 10:58:43 GMT -5
I choose to not follow the format (sorry Jeff! dock me as many points as you feel is warranted ) and throw my hat in the ring for This Was based on the following summary. TW - sounds like a young band full of piss and vinegar and ready to conquer the world while clearly still trying to figure out who they are. Yes it's clumsy at times but it's a dem fine Tull album w/out fully being quite "Tull". Too Old - sounds like a band who has been there and done that and is tired. This is the first album I noticed Ian beginning to recycle chord progressions and to my ears the whole thing sounds like a recycling of who Tull had become. Thank goodness the next album (and several of its followers) finds Ian taking renewed interest in something over the horizon.
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Post by Nonfatman on Aug 13, 2010 11:08:38 GMT -5
I choose to not follow the format (sorry Jeff! dock me as many points as you feel is warranted ) and throw my hat in the ring for This Was based on the following summary. TW - sounds like a young band full of piss and vinegar and ready to conquer the world while clearly still trying to figure out who they are. Yes it's clumsy at times but it's a dem fine Tull album w/out fully being quite "Tull". Too Old - sounds like a band who has been there and done that and is tired. This is the first album I noticed Ian beginning to recycle chord progressions and to my ears the whole thing sounds like a recycling of who Tull had become. Thank goodness the next album (and several of its followers) finds Ian taking renewed interest in something over the horizon. Thanks, Bogenbroom, don't worry about the format, even though I like the nine-point analysis, at this point we'll take what we can get. I had a feeling you would go with TW in this round! It's funny because I thought TOTRNR sounded different than its predecessors. I have heard it said though that the opening chord progression to the title track is the exact chromatic opposite of To Cry you a Song. Round Nine score so far: TW - 3 votes, TOTRNR - 3 votes First album to get 5 votes wins. This is going to be a nailbiter! Anyone who hasn't yet voted, feel free to weigh in. How 'bout it, Earl? Jeff
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Post by My God on Aug 14, 2010 9:26:31 GMT -5
I liked ''Too Old to Rock and Roll'' better than ''This Was'' because it's a better written and produced disc. I am always haunted by ''Pied Piper'' for some strange reason. Don't know why. So if you think Ray blew it; There was nothing to it; they patched him up as good as new.
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Post by Conundrum on Aug 17, 2010 1:35:11 GMT -5
This Was easliy gets my vote over Too Old To Rock 'N" Roll Too Young To Die. Too Old To Rock 'N" Roll Too Young To Die is a good, but not great Tull album in my opinion. I hink the best song on it is Whizz Kid. I still remember hearing that song on FM radio in the spring of 1976 when American FM radio was still great! I agree that Ian and the rest of the band (with the exception of John Glascock who was fresh on this album) sound kind of like they are going through the motions. If ever there was a Tull album that sounds like an Ian Anderson solo album, this is it. This Was on the other hand sounds like a band! They are just going for it! It is no doubt the album that sounds least like an Ian Anderson album. In fact, it could be devbated that Mick Abrahams has more of a presence here than Ian. In any case, everyone is really into it and the songs while not what Tull would go on to be are great. This Was gets my vote by far.
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Post by My God on Aug 17, 2010 9:33:19 GMT -5
Hey, to each his own. I still liked Too Old To Rock and Roll better. I'm glad we have this forum to share. Jethro Tull board is the Greatest! Hot night in Budapest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 10:37:27 GMT -5
1) Does the album break any new ground?
TW broke new ground as at the time a lot of new stuff was hitting turntables, even from established bands who started to move in different directions, the age of experimentation had been reborn. But TOTRNR also had it's moments, the TV Special, the 'concept' of a rock band putting together a themed musical stage show aimed at the theatre going public [long before 'We will rock you' and 'Mamma Mia'].
However, My vote on this one goes to TW [1-0]
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
For me, this round goes to TOTRNR, the way the pieces work together, an all Anderson composed package of songs, no covers, thematic, using sounds of the period, the pizzicato strings, the late night sax, and it bucked a trend for 1976.
So TOTRNR [1-1]
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
No debate for me, TOTRNR. [1-2]
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
For me TOTRNR is an essential album, it is one I constantly return to. TW is one I dip into more rarely these days. Which would I recommend to a newbie? probably judgiung it track by track I'd edge it into TW's court. but only just.
This round TW - [2-2]
5) How well-sung is the album?
Has to be TOTRNR, Anderson had found HIS voice by then, it is a solid album vocally for me,
at the end of round 5, TW 2 - TOTRNR 3
Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
The claghorn was a distraction in my opinion, the use of the strings on TOTRNR was much more interesting musically, plus backing singers, something not heard before on a Tull album if I recollect correctly.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
TOTRNR without a shadow of doubt. Oddly one of my other favourite albums is The Who's Quadrophenia, and whilst TOTRNR doesn't treat the subject of the youth/gang culture as seriously as Quad does, it is an album that I consider paints a rather good picture of the other 'gang culture which existed in Britain at that time; both albums essentially provide a flavour of the 60'/70's mod and rocker culture to greater and lesser degrees.
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
I'm no expert audiophile but I'd plump for TOTRNR
So this section goes to TOTRNR and if I offer 1 point overall for this section my score ends up, TW 2 - TOTRNR 4
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Post by TM on Aug 17, 2010 13:57:25 GMT -5
Hey, to each his own. I still liked Too Old To Rock and Roll better. I'm glad we have this forum to share. Jethro Tull board is the Greatest! Hot night in Budapest.
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Post by Nonfatman on Aug 17, 2010 15:08:17 GMT -5
I liked ''Too Old to Rock and Roll'' better than ''This Was'' because it's a better written and produced disc. I am always haunted by ''Pied Piper'' for some strange reason. Don't know why. So if you think Ray blew it; There was nothing to it; they patched him up as good as new. Thanks for casting your ballot on this Earl, pushing the score to 4-3 in favor of TW. Jeff
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Post by Nonfatman on Aug 17, 2010 15:11:39 GMT -5
This Was easliy gets my vote over Too Old To Rock 'N" Roll Too Young To Die. Too Old To Rock 'N" Roll Too Young To Die is a good, but not great Tull album in my opinion. I hink the best song on it is Whizz Kid. I still remember hearing that song on FM radio in the spring of 1976 when American FM radio was still great! I agree that Ian and the rest of the band (with the exception of John Glascock who was fresh on this album) sound kind of like they are going through the motions. If ever there was a Tull album that sounds like an Ian Anderson solo album, this is it. This Was on the other hand sounds like a band! They are just going for it! It is no doubt the album that sounds least like an Ian Anderson album. In fact, it could be devbated that Mick Abrahams has more of a presence here than Ian. In any case, everyone is really into it and the songs while not what Tull would go on to be are great. This Was gets my vote by far. Welcome to the Jethro Tull Board, Conundrum, and thanks for your vote. Good analysis in favor of This Was, bringing the score to 4-4 in Round Nine! Jeff
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Post by Nonfatman on Aug 17, 2010 15:20:35 GMT -5
1) Does the album break any new ground? TW broke new ground as at the time a lot of new stuff was hitting turntables, even from established bands who started to move in different directions, the age of experimentation had been reborn. But TOTRNR also had it's moments, the TV Special, the 'concept' of a rock band putting together a themed musical stage show aimed at the theatre going public [long before 'We will rock you' and 'Mamma Mia'].
However, My vote on this one goes to TW [1-0]2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it? For me, this round goes to TOTRNR, the way the pieces work together, an all Anderson composed package of songs, no covers, thematic, using sounds of the period, the pizzicato strings, the late night sax, and it bucked a trend for 1976.
So TOTRNR [1-1]3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning. No debate for me, TOTRNR. [1-2]4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics? For me TOTRNR is an essential album, it is one I constantly return to. TW is one I dip into more rarely these days. Which would I recommend to a newbie? probably judgiung it track by track I'd edge it into TW's court. but only just.
This round TW - [2-2]5) How well-sung is the album? Has to be TOTRNR, Anderson had found HIS voice by then, it is a solid album vocally for me,
at the end of round 5, TW 2 - TOTRNR 3Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include: 6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example. The claghorn was a distraction in my opinion, the use of the strings on TOTRNR was much more interesting musically, plus backing singers, something not heard before on a Tull album if I recollect correctly.7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc. TOTRNR without a shadow of doubt. Oddly one of my other favourite albums is The Who's Quadrophenia, and whilst TOTRNR doesn't treat the subject of the youth/gang culture as seriously as Quad does, it is an album that I consider paints a rather good picture of the other 'gang culture which existed in Britain at that time; both albums essentially provide a flavour of the 60'/70's mod and rocker culture to greater and lesser degrees.8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman. I'm no expert audiophile but I'd plump for TOTRNRSo this section goes to TOTRNR and if I offer 1 point overall for this section my score ends up, TW 2 - TOTRNR 4Apropos of his avatar, not to mention his screen name, the Quizz Kid has cast the fifth and deciding vote in favor of TOTRNR, which takes Round Nine by the score of 5-4 and so despite making a good showing, This Was has sadly fallen again. This Was's record is no an abysmal 0 Wins and 9 Losses in the Jethro Tull Board's Album Wars competition. Jeff P.S. I will be setting up Round 10 shortly, with the nine-point analysis of course, so stay tuned!
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Post by tootull on Aug 18, 2010 8:51:32 GMT -5
8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman. I'm no expert audiophile but I'd plump for TOTRNRSo this section goes to TOTRNR and if I offer 1 point overall for this section my score ends up, TW 2 - TOTRNR 4 Hi, Quizz Kid LOL...expert & audiophile together should be banned... I have a difficult time putting those two words together. "expert & audiophile" >cough< With "Too Old To" The original UK CD sounds just fine. No gold CD of this album to date. Acceptable in the car or on a boom box, the remaster is crisp, affecting the acoustic guitars & cymbals. These sound more natural to me on the original UK CD. I'm not an audiophile, I'm a human being. (my wife will disagree, haha) You can play them both, I'm not going to complain. This has become a favourite album of mine over the years, I certainly did not play it a lot in the 1970's, compared to now. The CD age really opened my ey... ears again to this Tull. ...and if I laughed a bit too fast. Well it was up to me. Cheers! -tootull
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2010 9:16:15 GMT -5
tootull, I hope this posts as I am having some problems with logging on.
I appreciate your comment about audiophile experts, I find it a little more difficult to be as 'discerning' as some, too much loud music over the years has left me with a tinnitus problem in one ear, so most albums now sound as if they're mono with Ringo playing a bad snare accompaniment with brushes in the right speaker.
Like you, I didn't really take to TOTRNR on release, but it is an album that has grown on me tremendously over the years. The remaster with bonus tracks made it all the more worthwhile.
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Post by tootull on Aug 18, 2010 13:11:19 GMT -5
I find it a little more difficult to be as 'discerning' as some, too much loud music over the years has left me with a tinnitus problem in one ear, so most albums now sound as if they're mono with Ringo playing a bad snare accompaniment with brushes in the right speaker. Yeah, tinnitus sucks. Wishing you well! '70's Led Zep was the worst for making my ears hiss after their concert.
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Post by My God on Aug 19, 2010 12:40:48 GMT -5
Kudos to Quizz Kid, you made not only the correct choice, but the intelligent one as well. ....and the mouse police never sleeps.
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Post by Nonfatman on Oct 3, 2010 0:08:40 GMT -5
Here we go, with yet another fun, albeit mildly contentious, round of Album Wars, to wit: Round Ten: This Was v. Songs From the Wood But before we do, a few little tweaks in the nine-question analysis. IMPORTANT METHODOLOGY CHANGES! First of all, the second question is now amended to read as follows: 2) The complexity/quality of the music: how adventurous is it? Are the melodies consistently good?This has the benefit of focusing not just on the complexity of the songs, but also on the overall quality of the melodies. Secondly, we've been using the nine-category system, and then merely adding up which album won more of the categories and then basing our decision on which album won more categories, sometimes without taking into consideration that the categories are weighted, so that the first five are much more important than the last four. This has always been the case, but too often overlooked. Greg was the one who noticed that, and he suggested a better system in which we award two points for each of the first five caterories, and only one point for each of the last four. I liked his suggestion, and think we should implement that method starting right now! Lastly, please bear in mind that, as always, ties are permissible in each of the rounds, so if one of us concludes that a particular round is a draw, that conclusion will be chalked up as a tie. So with that in mind....here goes: The main categories (two points awarded to the winner of each; in the case of a tie, both albums are awarded a single point):1) Does the album break any new ground?This Was unquestionably was a groundbreaking album, as there was really nothing like this in rock music before, and I'm talking not only about the use of the flute as a lead instrument in a rock band, but also the unique eccentric image of a vagabond dressed in a long ratty coat, standing on one leg. This album raised a lot of eyebrows as something very different from what other bands were doing. Songs from the Wood had a fresh, lively and fun feel, but it was not groundbreaking. The melding of English folk music with electric rock instruments had been done before, by Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span and others, and the influence of Steeleye on this album is quite pronounced. Therefore, this category, with its two points, goes to This Was. 2) The complexity/quality of the music: how adventurous is it? Are the melodies consistently good?This Was, for its part, has six great songs which have good melodies, and are adventurous, but the rest of the material is rather weak. SFTW, on the other hand, is solid throughout, with great melodies and some very adventurous stuff, like The Whistler, Velvet Green and Pibroch. SFTW takes this category, and gets two points. 3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.SFTW has lyrics that are reminiscent of a Shakespeare play. A Midsummer's Night Dream comes to mind. This Was has standard blues lyrics, which are good enough, but Ian is still developing as a lyricist at this time. SFTW wins this category, and takes its two points. 4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics? Very tough call. Both, really, are essential to the catalogue, and both have a bunch of Tull classics, so this is really a tie, and each album gets one point each. 5) How well-sung is the album?Ian is perhaps at the very height of his vocal ability on this album, although it was at this point during the live shows that the first faint traces of vocal strain could be heard. Two points for SFTW. And now, the less important categories (one point is awarded to the winner of each, but in the case of a tie, both albums gets zero points): 6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.This Was has the claghorn, and quirky vocals, so I would give this category to TW, since it's got some unusual effects which SFTW really does not have. One point to TW. 7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.I like both the front and back covers of TW, plus I like the liner notes giving some information about the album, and writing as if it were the future, "This Was" how we were playing then, is clever, as if Ian were anticipating a very long career early on. One point to TW. 8) Production and sound quality of the album.Songs From The Wood wins this category, and it's single point. 9) Does the album have a sense of humor?Songs From the Wood, with its sprightly sense of humor wins over the fairly humorless TW. One point for SFTW. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So tallying up the score using Greg's point-scoring system, I registered 5 points for TW, but 9 point for SFTW, so my vote is for SFTW. Round 10 score thus far: SFTW - 1 vote, TW - 0 votesFive votes are required for either album to win this round, same as it ever was. Who wants to go next? Jeff
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Post by Morthoron on Oct 3, 2010 10:39:01 GMT -5
Jeff, thanks for listening! It is too late to save poor 'This Was', but perhaps other albums will benefit by that album's sacrifice.
1) Does the album break any new ground?
'This Was' was a blues-rock album in the British mold of Cream, Fleetwood Mac, The Faces, Jeff Beck, etc. What set it apart was the jazz influence of Roland Kirk. SFTW follows Ian Anderson's interest in Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention (both bands became inextricably bound to Tull).
2 points for 'This Was' by a small margin.
2) The complexity/quality of the music: how adventurous is it? Are the melodies consistently good?
No contest. SFTW is exquisite in its compositional complexity. I can merely point to the songs 'Velvet Green', 'The Whistler' and 'Pibroch' as being far beyond anything recorded during the 'This Was' era.
2 points for 'SFTW'.
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme, metaphor, content and meaning.
Again, no contest. SFTW's depth of lyrical content, the sly use of innuendo and irony, and its thematic continuity is superb. One of Tull's most poetically challenging albums.
2 points for 'SFTW'.
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
As Jeff said, tough call. Both albums are indispensible in context with the history of Tull. This Was presents the original blues-oriented Tull with Mick Abrahams on lead guitar, and SFTW is the first of (and best) of a trilogy of pastoral albums Tull released in the mid-to-late 70's (the last of their classical period).
Tie. One point each.
5) How well-sung is the album?
The material is far more challenging on SFTW. But there is a lot of double and triple tracking on the vocals, which Jeff has already mentioned as indicative of the throat problems later to plague Ian. Nevertheless, Ian sings his heart out on SFTW.
2 points for SFTW.
6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
There is really nothing out of the ordinary on SFTW, instrumentally-speaking, unless you consider this as David (Dee) Palmer's first album as a full-time member of Tull, and his use of the portative pipe organ (I don't recall that type of organ being used on previous albums). But, This Was offers the Claghorn.
Meh, I generously grant 1 point for This Was.
7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
I was always bothered by the album cover of SFTW, featuring only Ian Anderson by the fire. I consider this as a slight to the other band members.
1 point to TW.
8) Production and sound quality of the album.
1 point for SFTW. The production money is clearly out of proportion, comparatively speaking.
9) Does the album have a sense of humor?
1 point for SFTW. Ian's sense of humor on SFTW is at its height. Few Tull albums are this funny.
'Songs from the Wood' wins.
Round 10 score thus far: SFTW - 2 vote, TW - 0 votes
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Post by tootull on Oct 3, 2010 14:52:20 GMT -5
Apples or oranges? Keeping it simple - by a landslide here, SFTW. When it comes to SFTW I have no time for TW.
Round 10 score thus far: SFTW - 3 votes, TW - 0 votes
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Post by My God on Oct 4, 2010 9:27:43 GMT -5
I liked Songs From The Wood much better. It reminds me of the great out doors and the title track always lifts me up when I'm down. Pibroch was very good as well. Ring out these bells.
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Post by tootull on Oct 4, 2010 11:21:36 GMT -5
I liked Songs From The Wood much better. It reminds me of the great out doors and the title track always lifts me up when I'm down. Pibroch was very good as well. Ring out these bells. Smart move, always remember, Tull Central is watching. watching
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Post by Nonfatman on Oct 21, 2010 13:13:23 GMT -5
I liked Songs From The Wood much better. It reminds me of the great out doors and the title track always lifts me up when I'm down. Pibroch was very good as well. Ring out these bells. Okay, a couple of shortcuts in the voting procedures, but all votes have been tallied, leaving us with a current Round Ten score of: SFTW: 4 votes TW: 0 votesFive votes are needed for either album to win this round, so what say we continue the proceedings? Jeff
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Post by TM on Oct 21, 2010 13:47:52 GMT -5
I liked Songs From The Wood much better. It reminds me of the great out doors and the title track always lifts me up when I'm down. Pibroch was very good as well. Ring out these bells. Okay, a couple of shortcuts in the voting procedures, but all votes have been tallied, leaving us with a current Round Ten score of: SFTW: 4 votes TW: 0 votesFive votes are needed for either album to win this round, so what say we continue the proceedings? Jeff This should have been over the same day. I'll try to take a stab tomorrow.
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Post by Nonfatman on Nov 9, 2010 22:18:23 GMT -5
When we last left off, SFTW had a 4-0 lead over TW in Round 10 of our Album Wars (This Was) competition. Five votes are needed, of course, for an album to win, so we really need to finish this off, if we are to proceed.
Newbies to The Jethro Tull Board are encouraged to participate, and preferably go through the nine-point analysis system that we have recently revised. Scroll back a few posts to the beginning of the SFTW v. TW album war to see the revised rules and criteria, and then, by all means, have a crack at it!
Jeff
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