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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 25, 2015 2:50:03 GMT -5
Well, a genius is one with an IQ of 140 or better, some test say 160. I don't know Ian's IQ so I don't know if he's a genius or not. But he does have a way with melody, writes good lyrics mostly, and has had a good deal of help from a batch of musicians that he should thank first. Right, we wouldn't be here talking if it weren't for Ian's ego, hard work and talent, but he isn't selling out the LA Forum or Madison Square Garden latey either is he. Jethro Tull was a band that Ian took over legally and so Tull became IA. Fair enough. But his claim, or so was said, that he was always Tull is somewhat dubious. Clive and Mick might have a say in that one. Pegg played with Fairport before he played with Tull and chose to quit Tull and remain with Fairport - Barlow went on to play with Ingwie Malmsteen, Robert Plant, Jimmy Page (heard of them?) and others. Martin is still playing Tull music. Well, so is Ian. Martin has the same right to do so as he contributed to 99% of the material for some forty-three or so years. I would also put forth the idea that a "masterpiece" is a subjective rating. Ian hasn't put out a masterpiece yet in my opinion, but Tull have, and Martin and Barlow were on those. And how do know the others can't create a masterpiece? They spent most of their time helping Ian create a couple of Tull masterpieces so we don't know, unless one would say Martin or Pegg already have. It's subjective. And finally, how many top ten albums has IA had? What kind of solo career would he have had without the name Jethro Tull backing his every career move. How much success has he had apart from having Martin at his side? Would he have made an impact based on his first album Walk Into Light had he been an unknown? And just because some of the others have quit and IA continued says as much for IA's drive and personality as talent. Every former musician who is still playing is certainly better at what they do now than IA is a singer. Perhaps IA should have quit at the same time some of the others did. I liked IA's last album but his live vocals are at the point of embarrassement. Having heard a Barlow solo a couple years ago, that certainly isn't the case with him. Michael Crow my own my! Why do you go on about this so! Let's see, Ian has written several hundred songs and you must say at least 100 of them are amazing! The total of 28 or so tall musicians have contributed what three or four songs to the Tullrepertoire ? Let's see what else comes to mind? Ian plays the flute and the acoustic guitar and oh yeah that's right his voice is on 95% of all the songs plus another odd assortment of instruments including the saxophone and mandolin occasionally.Martin basically plays the guitar and whoever the other three are depending upon the year basically contribute three other instruments to the mix. So Ian to almost every song for over 45 years contributes the songwriting plus 3 of the major instruments, voice, flute and guitar. and all the other musicians combined who happened to be in Tulland any given moment contribute four parts more or less. Martin even said that The arrangements he has done he basically did what any guitarist should do for the band they are in and occasionally wrote musical parts that we were a bit more than arranging, and that was part of what he is paid for. I can't imagine where u are coming from. I do agreewith you in one aspect though. It does seem that Ian does not have a good way with his fellow musicians sometimes. But that's kind of out of my realm of expertise. You have to really be close to the band to really know what's going on there Lol! Well, actually, I'm a litigator by nature and have been accused by family and friends as often arguing a case for the defense - usually the underdog, and usually sports or politics, just for the fun of it. So I come in for a season and spout and leave for a few weeks. Thing is I have never taken entertainment fodder such as this too seriously and will on ocassion have a bit of fun. There are those that do take it seriously and that's fine, but I really don't give a rat's to be honest. But I do stick with my original stance that the band members should be shown some respect at the end of the day because we don't really know what Tull would have accomplished had Martin, Evan or Barlow not been on the scene. Somebody here just made the statement that musicians and singers are easy to find, and if you are Garth Brooks stumbling around in Nashville that is probably true, but if you're Led Zep then that doesn't apply. For bands like Zep, The Who, Stones and 70s Tull it was about the chemistry. Jeff Hammond had an enormous impact on the theatrical and artsy side of Tull during his tenure, which just happened to be the band's peak period. ... And by the way, your post is full of holes, but I've grown tired of this thread and will let you have the last of it. You may take the ribbon. |
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Post by PierreC on Jan 27, 2015 11:38:04 GMT -5
it seems that i wasnt clear enough.
It all comes down to this; Ian can writes masterpiece with Dumbo as a musician. The rest of the former Tull cannot do anything without him. Name ONE successful record by ANY of the ex-tullies...THERE IS NONE.
And to say that Barlow played with Plant or else to make a point is hilarious. Again, Barlow was hired by Plant to do Plant's work..nothing else !
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Post by PierreC on Jan 27, 2015 11:40:10 GMT -5
but don't get me wrong. Barlow was great, i still have goose bumps listening to Minstrel. Pegg is great, Evans was THE piano player
BUT
When it's time to CREATE something (like a song ) They can't
sorry to say....
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 28, 2015 3:30:27 GMT -5
but don't get me wrong. Barlow was great, i still have goose bumps listening to Minstrel. Pegg is great, Evans was THE piano player BUT When it's time to CREATE something (like a song ) They can't sorry to say.... Barlow was great? Pegg is great and Evans was THE piano player? Nah, they were nothing without Ian. However, " when it comes time to create something (like a song) They can't," is ignorance gone to seed. They helped IA create most every song on the albums they played on, except songs like Jack In The Green where Ian played all the instruments. That would have been better had Martin and Barlow played on it though, just as having had a proper bass player on the tracks Ian played on on Stormwatch would have been better. Do you really thing that IA sat down and told/showed Martin Barre every note to play on say, Heavy Horses, or showed Barlow, or Evans, or Palmer or Glasscock all the parts to those songs? Do you really think Tull was all IA? That the band members had no say, no creative input in the making of those albums? Are you saying the same results they had with SFTW could have been done with any Dumbo? Your are saying then that the other members of Tull can't create something? ("They can't") I believe was your quote. Wasn't Elegy a David Palmer song. Palmer has many albums to his credit and many credits on many albums. He can't create? If that's the case, I want to sell you the Empire State Building at a bargain. |
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 28, 2015 3:55:23 GMT -5
it seems that i wasnt clear enough. It all comes down to this; Ian can writes masterpiece with Dumbo as a musician. The rest of the former Tull cannot do anything without him. Name ONE successful record by ANY of the ex-tullies...THERE IS NONE. And to say that Barlow played with Plant or else to make a point is hilarious. Again, Barlow was hired by Plant to do Plant's work..nothing else ! I'll name three successful records by ex-tillies - Aqualung, TAAB, APP. Name me one plantinum record Ian was a part of that didn't include Martin Barre. Name me one masterpiece Ian recorded with Dumbo as a musician. How many times has IA sold out MSG or the LA Forum without Martin and Barlow by his side? What evidence do you have that Tull would have had the same success with any other group of musicians? That would be speculation because it didn't happen that way. All we know is what did happen. Oh, and Barlow was hired by Plant to do Plant's work and nothing else. That's what side men do. I don't get your point. Was he suppose to be his cook also? Barlow had work after Tull with Plant which proves he has done something since Tull. I fail to see the humor in that. Explain. |
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Post by PierreC on Jan 28, 2015 13:58:32 GMT -5
Wow...when someone is trying hard not to understand.
When Barlow is hired to play FOR Plant he isn't creating is own songs, yes he will add some of his wisdom yes, but that's all. The product is Plant's
Creating a song and creating a good solo guitar inside a song is two different things, both are valuable indeed but the end product is what we care not the ingredients.
and David Palmer had one record than quit the business. If it would have been good he would have continue but it didnt work ! (go to his site he will tell you)
If one day Barre gets a succesful record out (i know he has a few but no success there), pack Bush Empire and goes out on a tour in North America or around the world than i will come back here and say YES he can do it !
...untill then... i'm still waiting.
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Post by Dan on Jan 28, 2015 16:14:25 GMT -5
Sorry but I don't consider any of Ian's solo projects , masterpieces. Secret Language is the best of the bunch.
Dan
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Post by TM on Jan 28, 2015 16:56:32 GMT -5
Wow...when someone is trying hard not to understand. When Barlow is hired to play FOR Plant he isn't creating is own songs, yes he will add some of his wisdom yes, but that's all. The product is Plant's Creating a song and creating a good solo guitar inside a song is two different things, both are valuable indeed but the end product is what we care not the ingredients. and David Palmer had one record than quit the business. If it would have been good he would have continue but it didnt work ! (go to his site he will tell you) If one day Barre gets a succesful record out (i know he has a few but no success there), pack Bush Empire and goes out on a tour in North America or around the world than i will come back here and say YES he can do it ! ...untill then... i'm still waiting. What is your point here? Are you trying to tell us that in order for a band member to be meaningful, he needs to be able to have a commercially success solo career? Can you give us an example of a non-singer from another band who's fits the criteria you are describing? |
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Post by TM on Jan 28, 2015 17:38:57 GMT -5
Sorry but I don't consider any of Ian's solo projects , masterpieces. Secret Language is the best of the bunch. Dan Jeff made a good point a while back and that was the solo stuff has always been great in the context that it was a supplement to Jethro Tull, but not as a replacement. And it's no different with Martin's solo work. I'm not sure what solo album I like best. Walk Into Light has a lot of good songs on it, but probably suffers because the songs are indistinguishable. I've been told the same thing about Rupi's Dance. |
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Post by TM on Jan 28, 2015 17:57:05 GMT -5
it seems that i wasnt clear enough. It all comes down to this; Ian can writes masterpiece with Dumbo as a musician. The rest of the former Tull cannot do anything without him. Name ONE successful record by ANY of the ex-tullies...THERE IS NONE. And to say that Barlow played with Plant or else to make a point is hilarious. Again, Barlow was hired by Plant to do Plant's work..nothing else ! I'll name three successful records by ex-tillies - Aqualung, TAAB, APP. Name me one plantinum record Ian was a part of that didn't include Martin Barre.Name me one masterpiece Ian recorded with Dumbo as a musician. How many times has IA sold out MSG or the LA Forum without Martin and Barlow by his side? What evidence do you have that Tull would have had the same success with any other group of musicians? That would be speculation because it didn't happen that way. All we know is what did happen. Oh, and Barlow was hired by Plant to do Plant's work and nothing else. That's what side men do. I don't get your point. Was he suppose to be his cook also? Barlow had work after Tull with Plant which proves he has done something since Tull. I fail to see the humor in that. Explain. If you think of Tull in terms of commercial success, their greatest songs are those that predominantly feature Martin's guitar over the flute, or at least equally. Even well into their career, when you think of the Grammy winning Crest of a Knave, that album featured Martin more so than Ian's flute. I think that is something that got lost on Ian throughout the years. Less is more as far as the flute goes in my book. |
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Post by Dan on Jan 28, 2015 22:17:52 GMT -5
Sorry but I don't consider any of Ian's solo projects , masterpieces. Secret Language is the best of the bunch. Dan Jeff made a good point a while back and that was the solo stuff has always been great in the context that it was a supplement to Jethro Tull, but not as a replacement. And it's no different with Martin's solo work. I'm not sure what solo album I like best. Walk Into Light has a lot of good songs on it, but probably suffers because the songs are indistinguishable. I've been told the same thing about Rupi's Dance. Continuing that band members influence the sounds of I.A. solo albums/cds, Walk Into Light would not have been the same without Peter Vettese's influence and we wouldn't even be talking about Divinities without Andrew Giddings contributions. I love Secret Language of Birds (the only real I.A. solo album) , but Rupi's was lacking and TAAB 2 was a terrible title and only got a "bump" because of the reference to the JETHRO TULL Band that made it famous. H.E . had a good song or two but I don't see the significant contributions by the "Dumbo" musicians that would have made this a "band". Like an asshole, I buy every new release and remasters , loyal to end , but contrary to popular belief ( I.A. included) ...Ian Anderson IS NOT JETHRO TULL. |
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 29, 2015 0:16:35 GMT -5
Wow...when someone is trying hard not to understand. When Barlow is hired to play FOR Plant he isn't creating is own songs, yes he will add some of his wisdom yes, but that's all. The product is Plant's Creating a song and creating a good solo guitar inside a song is two different things, both are valuable indeed but the end product is what we care not the ingredients. and David Palmer had one record than quit the business. If it would have been good he would have continue but it didnt work ! (go to his site he will tell you) If one day Barre gets a succesful record out (i know he has a few but no success there), pack Bush Empire and goes out on a tour in North America or around the world than i will come back here and say YES he can do it ! ...untill then... i'm still waiting. Okay, perhaps I have a slight advantage here. I've played on a few albums in my days and was always expected to bring my game, or input, as all musicians were. I once ended up rewriting an entire song just because the way the session progressed but I didn't get writer's credit because it was my job to embellish the song and that is what I was paid for (that's happened a lot on songwriter demos). On one session the keyboard player came up with a melody on the spot just doing fills that ended up being used for the melody hook for the chorus and that song became a minor hit. Did he get writer's credit? No, he got paid as a session player. On another session I suggested I switch from guitar to mandolin and the song completely changed and became the opening track on the album instead of being tossed in the bin. Listen to Homo E., a good album, well written and performed, then go back and listen to Warchild or SFTW or APP and listen to the difference. H.E. was a solo project with hired musicians. I'm sure they had plenty of leeway, but Warchild was done by a band, created and executed by a band. It has three times the life, as do all the first ten or so Tull albums than H.E. When IA brought in a song - I don't know this for a fact of course, but I would imagine perhaps half of the song or less was there when the session began. Not always, but there were times when Ian had to put in the liner notes - "additional material by Martin Barre and or David Palmer," etc. Barlow has even said that most of the time they built it up on spot and there were almost never any lyrics written for them when he started. That tells you a lot there. Ex Tull players shouldn't be judged necessarily by what happened after Tull, but what they did in their prime with Tull. Not everyone becomes a solo artist and numbers don't always define success. If that is the case, then there was Elvis, then everybody else. BTW: Didn't Palmer have several albums covering like Genesis, Pink Floyd etc. Martin has several albums, Pegg at least one, Allcock several, and Mark Craney had big success before Tull, as did Eddie Jobson. |
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 29, 2015 0:28:44 GMT -5
Sorry but I don't consider any of Ian's solo projects , masterpieces. Secret Language is the best of the bunch. Dan Jeff made a good point a while back and that was the solo stuff has always been great in the context that it was a supplement to Jethro Tull, but not as a replacement. And it's no different with Martin's solo work. I'm not sure what solo album I like best. Walk Into Light has a lot of good songs on it, but probably suffers because the songs are indistinguishable. I've been told the same thing about Rupi's Dance. I like Walk Into Light best. I just like that era of Tull and WIL had that folk meets techno thing that I thought worked well. I guess I was surprised at the time that a fusion like that could work as well as it did. SLOB would be next. Actually, I like that better than anything from the 90s on, with the exception of RTB and a couple things form ALLM. SLOB had the last decent natural vocal performance IMO. |
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Post by TM on Jan 29, 2015 12:04:51 GMT -5
Jeff made a good point a while back and that was the solo stuff has always been great in the context that it was a supplement to Jethro Tull, but not as a replacement. And it's no different with Martin's solo work. I'm not sure what solo album I like best. Walk Into Light has a lot of good songs on it, but probably suffers because the songs are indistinguishable. I've been told the same thing about Rupi's Dance. I like Walk Into Light best. I just like that era of Tull and WIL had that folk meets techno thing that I thought worked well. I guess I was surprised at the time that a fusion like that could work as well as it did. SLOB would be next. Actually, I like that better than anything from the 90s on, with the exception of RTB and a couple things form ALLM. SLOB had the last decent natural vocal performance IMO. One of the things that really interested me with Walk Into Light was listening to Ian's drum programming. I saw it as opportunity to hear how Ian would handle the drums had he been able to play them. I liked what he did for the most part. I thought Later That Same Evening was pretty cool for a drumming standpoint. He didn't use the toms very much for some reason. And I was a bit surprised that he allowed things on the record that would be impossible for a drummer to play. |
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Pieter
One of the Youngest of the Family
Give us direction, the best of goodwill
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Post by Pieter on Jan 29, 2015 14:46:50 GMT -5
I like Walk Into Light best. I just like that era of Tull and WIL had that folk meets techno thing that I thought worked well. I guess I was surprised at the time that a fusion like that could work as well as it did. SLOB would be next. Actually, I like that better than anything from the 90s on, with the exception of RTB and a couple things form ALLM. SLOB had the last decent natural vocal performance IMO. One of the things that really interested me with Walk Into Light was listening to Ian's drum programming. I saw it as opportunity to hear how Ian would handle the drums had he been able to play them. I liked what he did for the most part. I thought Later That Same Evening was pretty cool for a drumming standpoint. He didn't use the toms very much for some reason. And I was a bit surprised that he allowed things on the record that would be impossible for a drummer to play. There are quite a few songs from Walk into light that I like a lot. Songs that I'd actually (no, this is not me trying to get into the recent "çontribution of the band" discussion) love to hear arranged and played by the Glasscock/Palmer/Barlow/Evans/Barre line-up: Looking for Eden, Fly by night, Walk into light, Made in England, Different Germany, Toad in the hole and End game. I find the singing on this album sounding very intimate in a way. Pieter |
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Post by TM on Jan 29, 2015 17:29:43 GMT -5
One of the things that really interested me with Walk Into Light was listening to Ian's drum programming. I saw it as opportunity to hear how Ian would handle the drums had he been able to play them. I liked what he did for the most part. I thought Later That Same Evening was pretty cool for a drumming standpoint. He didn't use the toms very much for some reason. And I was a bit surprised that he allowed things on the record that would be impossible for a drummer to play. There are quite a few songs from Walk into light that I like a lot. Songs that I'd actually (no, this is not me trying to get into the recent "çontribution of the band" discussion) love to hear arranged and played by the Glasscock/Palmer/Barlow/Evans/Barre line-up: Looking for Eden, Fly by night, Walk into light, Made in England, Different Germany, Toad in the hole and End game. I find the singing on this album sounding very intimate in a way. Pieter I only recall Ian playing Fly By Night live back in 1984 and I thought it worked well live - even better than on the record as Martin and Doane gave it a bit more grit. I think a lot of us would like to hear the way that particular line-up would have played on a lot more of the recent songs. But truthfully, I wouldn't mind hearing his current band play it as well. It is an IA solo show, so why not play a larger sampling of solo material? |
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Post by TM on Jan 29, 2015 17:40:00 GMT -5
Jeff made a good point a while back and that was the solo stuff has always been great in the context that it was a supplement to Jethro Tull, but not as a replacement. And it's no different with Martin's solo work. I'm not sure what solo album I like best. Walk Into Light has a lot of good songs on it, but probably suffers because the songs are indistinguishable. I've been told the same thing about Rupi's Dance. Continuing that band members influence the sounds of I.A. solo albums/cds, Walk Into Light would not have been the same without Peter Vettese's influence and we wouldn't even be talking about Divinities without Andrew Giddings contributions. I love Secret Language of Birds (the only real I.A. solo album) , but Rupi's was lacking and TAAB 2 was a terrible title and only got a "bump" because of the reference to the JETHRO TULL Band that made it famous. H.E . had a good song or two but I don't see the significant contributions by the "Dumbo" musicians that would have made this a "band". Like an asshole, I buy every new release and remasters , loyal to end , but contrary to popular belief ( I.A. included) ...Ian Anderson IS NOT JETHRO TULL. Tull was always a band for me too. But Ian killed it when he began featuring violinists on stage and began playing Queen and Led Zep tunes in concert. I think that was also around the time he got into the orchestral thing. I don't think I've ever felt the same about him ever since. |
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Post by Biggles on Jan 29, 2015 22:34:06 GMT -5
Wow...when someone is trying hard not to understand. When Barlow is hired to play FOR Plant he isn't creating is own songs, yes he will add some of his wisdom yes, but that's all. The product is Plant's Creating a song and creating a good solo guitar inside a song is two different things, both are valuable indeed but the end product is what we care not the ingredients. and David Palmer had one record than quit the business. If it would have been good he would have continue but it didnt work ! (go to his site he will tell you) If one day Barre gets a succesful record out (i know he has a few but no success there), pack Bush Empire and goes out on a tour in North America or around the world than i will come back here and say YES he can do it ! ...untill then... i'm still waiting. What is your point here? Are you trying to tell us that in order for a band member to be meaningful, he needs to be able to have a commercially success solo career? Can you give us an example of a non-singer from another band who's fits the criteria you are describing? There's only one Jeff Beck. And he's an enigma. It just doesn't happen often. |
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Post by TM on Jan 30, 2015 0:03:19 GMT -5
What is your point here? Are you trying to tell us that in order for a band member to be meaningful, he needs to be able to have a commercially success solo career? Can you give us an example of a non-singer from another band who's fits the criteria you are describing? There's only one Jeff Beck. And he's an enigma. It just doesn't happen often. Yeah...he's okay. |
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 30, 2015 0:10:06 GMT -5
What is your point here? Are you trying to tell us that in order for a band member to be meaningful, he needs to be able to have a commercially success solo career? Can you give us an example of a non-singer from another band who's fits the criteria you are describing? There's only one Jeff Beck. And he's an enigma. It just doesn't happen often. Yeah, Jeff. One of my favorites. He's one of the few instrumentalist that went on to fame, but he wasn't really a side man or band type of guy anyway, even with the Yardbirds. He aways came and went and never commited to a band until he became a real band leader about the time of Blow By Blow. He's on par with the greats as a guitarist anyway. |
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 30, 2015 0:14:03 GMT -5
Here's you some good cruising music TM.
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Post by Michael Crowe on Jan 30, 2015 0:38:24 GMT -5
There are quite a few songs from Walk into light that I like a lot. Songs that I'd actually (no, this is not me trying to get into the recent "çontribution of the band" discussion) love to hear arranged and played by the Glasscock/Palmer/Barlow/Evans/Barre line-up: Looking for Eden, Fly by night, Walk into light, Made in England, Different Germany, Toad in the hole and End game. I find the singing on this album sounding very intimate in a way. Pieter It is an IA solo show, so why not play a larger sampling of solo material? Because the Tull material is better. You know, the material that actual band members helped to create. |
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Post by TM on Jan 30, 2015 11:20:52 GMT -5
It is an IA solo show, so why not play a larger sampling of solo material? Because the Tull material is better. You know, the material that actual band members helped to create. Very true, but his core fans would totally appreciate a full-on Ian Anderson solo show... Which of course prompts one to now think of the ultimate set list, but work comes first. |
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Pieter
One of the Youngest of the Family
Give us direction, the best of goodwill
Posts: 84
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Post by Pieter on Jan 31, 2015 15:22:29 GMT -5
Because the Tull material is better. You know, the material that actual band members helped to create. Very true, but his core fans would totally appreciate a full-on Ian Anderson solo show... Which of course prompts one to now think of the ultimate set list, but work comes first. Are we not the core fans? I'd love a mix of Tull and solo. But of course, as has been stated, a really new setlist has been asked for a lot. One can Always Hope (yep, in capitals)!! Pieter |
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Post by TM on Feb 3, 2015 20:08:45 GMT -5
Very true, but his core fans would totally appreciate a full-on Ian Anderson solo show... Which of course prompts one to now think of the ultimate set list, but work comes first. Are we not the core fans? I'd love a mix of Tull and solo. But of course, as has been stated, a really new setlist has been asked for a lot. One can Always Hope (yep, in capitals)!! Pieter Yes, we are the core fans, which means we'd be the only people interested in an a sole IA solo tour. |
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