Album Wars (This Was)

[Nonfatman]

Traveling over the Thanksgiving break, I had a rare opportunity to listen to several Tull albums back to back in the car, which inevitably led to comparisons, and the idea for this thread.

So, what I would like to do here is pit each album against every other album, systematically, starting from This Was and working our way through the catalogue. After each album has gone to war with all the other albums, it will have a Won-Loss record, much like in sports, from which we can then compile our Tull-album standings. Only studio Tull albums are to be considered, but for purposes of this competition Living in the Past shall be deemed a studio album, since most of that album is comprised of "new" studio recordings. Bonus tracks on remastered editions shall not be taken into account, only the albums as they were originally released.

An album will "win" a particular round against another album only when it has acquired five votes, so the first album to get five votes wins.

As much as possible I would like this to be an objective test rather than subjective preferences, so the five main objective criteria to be taken into consideration are:

1) Does the album break any new ground?

2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?

3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme,
metaphor, content and meaning.

4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?

5) How well-sung is the album?

Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:

6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.

7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.

8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.

Jeff

[Nonfatman]

First up: THIS WAS "Round" one: THIS WAS v. STAND UP

This Was is obviously ground breaking, as it was Tull's debut as a very unique band. It also contains several Tull classics that remain staples of the setlist 40 years later. But the blues-based Abrahams numbers are quite simple in terms of music and lyrics, and the vocals are not great. In terms of almost all the objective criteria set forth at the outset of this thread, Stand up is, in my opinion, the easy winner.

Stand Up: 1 vote
This Was: 0 votes

(Remember, 5 votes are needed for a "win" or "loss" to be declared in each round, so this round will not be decided until one of the two albums acquires five votes.)

Jeff

[tootull]

Because it was a new day yesterday, for a thousand mothers & Jeffrey the fat man, I'll choose Stand Up.
After all we used to know when you look into the sun, nothing is easy until you play Bourée, for it will give you reasons for waiting, before going back to the family of Tull albums.

[Nonfatman]

Dec 6, 2009 12:16:57 GMT -5 tootull said:

Because it was a new day yesterday, for a thousand mothers & Jeffrey the fat man, I'll choose Stand Up.
After all we used to know when you look into the sun, nothing is easy until you play Bourée, for it will give you reasons for waiting, before going back to the family of Tull albums.

LOL, okay, so the score so far in this round is:

Stand Up 2, This Was 0

Jeff

[Lordiffyboatrace]

Im not saying i disagree with the previous 2 points of view but im going to suggest that it may not be as cut and dried as you may think.
one of the criteria of this competition was does it break any new ground, well I would argue that perhaps the feature of the use of a flute as a main instrument on a rock album would have been unusual even for an experimental period of the late 60s, so it would be ground-breaking for that reason.
However, having said all that, Im gonna vote for Stand Up too. I think its a more interesting album musically, and there arent any instrumentals to pad it out either.
I really like the use of instruments like mandolin and balalaika as well, and overall i feel its a fairly mellow sounding album,
It stormed up the charts as well but I personally feel better was yet to come from the band.
Overall Stand Up takes this round for me.

[TM]

1) Does the album break any new ground?

Both albums break new ground. Tie

2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?

SU expands on the blues based structure of TW. Have to go with SU.

3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme,
metaphor, content and meaning.

It's only natural that SU edges out TW.

4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?

SU is on the periphery of classic Tull.

5) How well-sung is the album?

Not sure what Ian was thinking with the TW vocals. No doubt SU is superior.

Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:

6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.

No question it's SU. Bach's Bouree vs Roland Kirk's Serenade...You have the rotated guitar sound on A New Day Yesterday. Martin playing flute on a couple of tracks. The introduction of the mando and balalaika. As well as the prominent use of strings. No question SU is the more interesting based on musical touches.

7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.

You have to go with the album where they actually "stood up."

8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.

Not thrilled with the mix of either of this albums. Not a big fan of total stereo separation.


Winner = Stand Up

[Max Quad]

"Not a big fan of total stereo separation."
What does that mean?

Now that I've bought The Beatles remastered stereo box set, I'm now contemplating buying the mono box set. (Don't tell my wife)

[TM]

Dec 6, 2009 20:12:12 GMT -5 Max Quad said:

"Not a big fan of total stereo separation."
What does that mean?

Now that I've bought The Beatles remastered stereo box set, I'm now contemplating buying the mono box set. (Don't tell my wife)

You know, it's producers who didn't get enough fiddling with the balance knob growing up. So they felt the need to affect the sound of the record by panning the vocals, guitar, or flute all the way to one side.

[Dan]

I wouldn't even think this one would be close but the criteria has to be considered in every contest. This Was was closer than I thought considering the criteria, but sound quality and the fact I never find myself throwing this cd in the 'drive'-puts it behind This Was.

Funny on 'Bursting Out' , Ian introduces , 'A New Day Yesterday' as "the only one we do in a blues tempo -not surprising" but many This Was blues songs are staples of current setlists.

Stand Up for Tull classics.

However, sacriligeous as it sounds, under the criteria , Underwraps would beat out Stand Up in almost every category except classic songs and a tie for lyrics/imagery .
Not my personal opinion , only following the criteria, if it comes down to that.

[Nonfatman]

Dec 6, 2009 14:46:22 GMT -5 Lordiffyboatrace said:

Im not saying i disagree with the previous 2 points of view but im going to suggest that it may not be as cut and dried as you may think.
one of the criteria of this competition was does it break any new ground, well I would argue that perhaps the feature of the use of a flute as a main instrument on a rock album would have been unusual even for an experimental period of the late 60s, so it would be ground-breaking for that reason.
However, having said all that, Im gonna vote for Stand Up too. I think its a more interesting album musically, and there arent any instrumentals to pad it out either.
I really like the use of instruments like mandolin and balalaika as well, and overall i feel its a fairly mellow sounding album,
It stormed up the charts as well but I personally feel better was yet to come from the band.
Overall Stand Up takes this round for me.

I know what you are saying. This Was, in many respects, was the most groundbreaking album Tull have ever done, because as you say it was the first time the flute was ever used as the main instrument in a rock band. (For that reason, I think that This Was may score a few upsets in these album wars, if people vote with their heads rather than their hearts.) It's probably a closer call between This Was and Stand Up than I suggested, but the latter has to win because it is so consistently excellent from start to finish, whereas in This Was you have the rather boring Abrahams blues numbers, and a few too many instrumentals.

Score so far: Stand Up 3, This Was 0.

Jeff

[Nonfatman]

Okay, so with Paul's vote it's now Stand Up 4, This Was 0.

Jeff

[Nonfatman]

Dec 6, 2009 21:44:06 GMT -5 Dan said:

I wouldn't even think this one would be close but the criteria has to be considered in every contest. This Was was closer than I thought considering the criteria, but sound quality and the fact I never find myself throwing this cd in the 'drive'-puts it behind This Was.

From the context of what Dan wrote, I think he meant to say "puts it behind Stand Up" otherwise what he said wouldn't make sense. So clearly this is a vote by Dan for Stand Up, which makes it unanimous: STAND UP - 5 THIS WAS - 0
Round one goes to Stand Up with five votes. This Was's record is now 0-1.

Tomorrow we do Round Two, THIS WAS v. BENEFIT.

Jeff

[Dan]

Dec 6, 2009 22:00:50 GMT -5 Nonfatman said:

Dec 6, 2009 21:44:06 GMT -5 Dan said:

I wouldn't even think this one would be close but the criteria has to be considered in every contest. This Was was closer than I thought considering the criteria, but sound quality and the fact I never find myself throwing this cd in the 'drive'-puts it behind This Was.

From the context of what Dan wrote, I think he meant to say "puts it behind Stand Up" otherwise what he said wouldn't make sense. So clearly this is a vote by Dan for Stand Up, which makes it unanimous: STAND UP - 5 THIS WAS - 0
Round one goes to Stand Up with five votes. This Was's record is now 0-1.

Tomorrow we do Round Two, THIS WAS v. BENEFIT.

Jeff

Whoops. My bad.
Definitely, Stand Up over TW.

Dan

[Nonfatman]

Okay, so next up in This Was' s wars is Round 2:
THIS WAS v. BENEFIT.

1) Does the album break any new ground?

This Was has to edge out Benefit in this department, because it introduced the flute into rock music for the first time, and because it was a unique blend of rock, jazz and blues. Benefit was not as revolutionary. Although it incorporates some elements of English folk rock in songs like Sossity and For Michael Collins, Jeffrey and Me, that kind of Elizabethan folk rock was already being done by Fairport and Steeleye, and if anything Benefit was influenced by those groups.

2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?

This Was was revolutionary in introducing the flute as a rock instrument, but the music is not all that complex, and aside from the jazzy, grunting flute riffs that Ian plays, it rarely strays from typical blues rock. Overall, Benefit has the more adventurous and varied music.

3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme,
metaphor, content and meaning.

In this category Benefit wins hands down. Whereas the lyrics on This Was are very basic blusey type stuff, with very simple themes of male rejection over being dumped, Benefit shows Ian maturing as a songwriter and lyricist in leaps and bounds, and expanding into other songwriting topics.

4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?

This is an interesting match-up, because with the exception of
With You There to Help Me, nothing on Benefit ever gets played live. To Cry You a Song was last played in 1977, and Teacher only gets aired out every ten years or so, and once in awhile we get a brief instrumental snippet of Sossity. On This Was, however, Someday the Sun Won't Shine for You, My Sunday Feeling, Serendade to a Cuckoo, Beggar's Farm, Song for Jeffrey and even Dharma for One all have acquired classic Tull status, and so therefore I would have to give the edge to This Was in this category.

5) How well-sung is the album?

Benefit shows Ian improving as a vocalist, and his singing on this album seems much more self-assured and confident. Plus, on This Was, over half the material was either instrumental or was sung by Mick Abrahams. Benefit wins in this department.

Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:

6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.

This Was gets the edge with the claghorn and flute-grunting.

7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.

Neither album is notable in this department.

8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.

Benefit wins in this category, as it is the better sounding album.

Overall, this is a very tough decision, but all things considered, I would have to choose Benefit over This Was because of the quality of the songwriting, lyrics and singing.

Score: Benefit : 1 vote
This Was : 0 votes

Jeff

[Lordiffyboatrace]

1) Does the album break any new ground?
Well maybe this is the album that would see Ian play more acoustic guitar than previously (my favourite instrument of his)


2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?
Maybe the music isnt quite as diverse in style as this was over the whole album. this was had a couple of jazzy style songs in amongst the bluesy ones. But overall i think benefit is better. It features backwards passages, piano, acoustic guitars, rockier songs, and a song which totally changes direction in the middle (son)


3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme,
metaphor, content and meaning.

Much better lyrics on Benefit. I feel Ian continued in the vein of stand up where his lyrics were becoming like stories with little repetition in them (which he would go on to develop over the years), as opposed to the typical blues fare on this was (song for jeffrey aside imo)


4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?

I would say this question is all about opinions, and in mine, Benefit is definitely a classic JT album. I really like With you there to help me, nothing to say, michael collins, sossity are all favourites of mine.

5) How well-sung is the album?
Benefit is better again for me here. Ian is finding his feet as a vocalist.

Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:

6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
I think the backwards guitars on play in time are an interesting touch. i also think that the middle section of Son is interesting as it seems totally detached from the rest of the song (the bit that goes, "I only see...")

7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
I quite like benefits cover but Im going to mention the albums running order. Being from the UK i have the original version of the album hahaha in that track 3 is Alive and well and living in. Over in the US you guys got teacher instead i believe.
Strangely tho, I always preferred Teacher even though i know the band didnt care for it!

8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.


Sound seems to hold up well today. I dont think i know much about music production to fully comment on this subject.


Overall Im gonna vote for Benefit as its more true to what Jethro Tull were about by that stage and what they were to become later.
I also feel it contains a few tracks that seem to be underrated perhaps by fans and even the band themselves.
Nothing to Say, and Michael Collins are the 2 that spring to mind for me

[Mix]

I'm not too good at following rules so I'll be brief.

This Was is interesting but is the only album that doesn't sound like Jethro Tull.

Stand Up is probably one of my least favourite albums although it does contain some classic moments. This album is important because you start to see Ian developing his own style.

Benefit is the first real Jethro Tull album in my opinion and as they say, the rest is history.

[Nonfatman]

Great analysis, Dave. We arrived at the same conclusion for somewhat different reasons, which is what makes this interesting.

I too love the song Teacher, but more for the lyrics which are overlooked. I was talking to Glenn Cornick after he did a guest appearance with the tribute band War Child, and he did not realize that the song is about a guy that has been dumped, and has fallen into such a deep state of depression that he can't get the girl out of his mind, despite the best efforts of his friend, who was urging him to get out and have fun, because "the nest is full of nothing, when the bird has flown." I have actually been that guy in the song, a couple of times.

Benefit - 2 votes
This Was - 0 votes

Jeff

[Nonfatman]

Dec 8, 2009 10:22:49 GMT -5 Mix said:

I'm not too good at following rules so I'll be brief.

This Was is interesting but is the only album that doesn't sound like Jethro Tull.

Stand Up is probably one of my least favourite albums although it does contain some classic moments. This album is important because you start to see Ian developing his own style.

Benefit is the first real Jethro Tull album in my opinion and as they say, the rest is history.

I remember from other boards you saying that the earliest Tull albums are your least favorite.

Benefit - 3 votes
This Was - 0 votes

Jeff

[tootull]

Still breaking new ground with me, I vote for Benefit.
With every listen, every tune still amazes me on Benefit, American or Brit release.

Bias warning: I’m not a big blues fan, I enjoy blues live more than on a medium, I won’t reach for the blues at home as much as other types of music. God knows there was a lot of blues played in Toronto clubs in the 1970's to give me more than my fill.
To praise This Was: The 2001 stereo remaster is when I started to really listen to This Was. The mono CD release really sold me with the guitars sounding awesome.

Beware: My support for Tull started after seeing them live in 1972. Tull is all about Ian Anderson & Martin Barre for me. I started to listen to Tull from 1968-1970 more with the dawn of the CD era, and by this time I was really into the ultra mod Under Wraps.

[Nonfatman]

Okay, so now with Tootull's vote, the score is:

Benefit : 4
This Was : 0

Jeff

[Dan]

Dec 8, 2009 14:56:40 GMT -5 Nonfatman said:

Okay, so now with Tootull's vote, the score is:

Benefit : 4
This Was : 0

Jeff

You may close it out with my vote for Benefit.
Criteria:
1) Does the album break any new ground?

This Was , in Ian's own admission , an imitation of someone else's blues and Benefit, while dark , was all Ian.
Benefit
2) The complexity of the music: how adventurous is it?

Addition of John Evans as a regular member for 'our ' benefit for years to come , gives this one to Benefit[
3) The quality of the lyrics in terms of imagery, rhyme,
metaphor, content and meaning.

Always liked , "Can you cook , can you sew, well I don't want to know " because that is not what you need on the inside.
Nice nod to astronaut Michael Collins here and Jeffrey gets a mention in a title and again for tea in the evening.
Benefit
4) How essential the album is to the Tull catalogue? Does it contain any Tull classics?
Funny how on Bursting Out Ian states that A New Day Yesterday is the only one they do in a blues tempo (not surprising) but the This Was album is well represented in live shows.
However, I have never heard any TW songs on the radio but have heard Teacher and To Cry You A Song. Again, Benefit
5) How well-sung is the album?
Easy one with Benefit and contains one of my favorite songs that would be an easy one to play and sing live and apropos , 'A Time For Everything".
Benefit

Other criteria to be considered, but afforded less weight, include:

6) Are there any unusual or interesting musical touches, like the claghorn on This Was for example.
Backwards flute on 'With You There.. and claghorn makes this a tie.

7) The overall packaging and presentation of the album, including artwork, liner notes, etc.
The only win for This Was with band members dressed as old men and ensuing confusion when the fans got to see them live.
This Was

8) Production and sound quality of the album, but for this one should be consistent, as to audio equipment and CD quality, since it would be unfair to compare a remastered or gold CD to a regular disc, or to compare an album heard on a great stereo system compared to an old cassette tape played on a walkman.
All early Tull recordings suffer from lack of clarity.

Tie.

[Nonfatman]

Okay, so Benefit takes Round 2 unanimously in the This Was wars.

This Was's record is now 0-2.

Next up is Round 3: THIS WAS v. AQUALUNG.....but it will have to wait until the weekend. Will poor old This Was ever get a vote, much less win a round? We shall see.

Jeff

[Deleted]

I have a feeling later on when albums such as Under Wraps and A come about, This Was may get a vote or two. Perhaps even with the more recent albums.

But as far as Aqualung goes, it definitely gets my vote. This Was was colorful, interesting, and quite creative, but the raw, hard rock music and soft lilting tunes of Aqualung aren't only groundbreaking but also an international classic

[TM]

Agreed. Aqualung 2 TW 0.

We may want to at least forge ahead to the later stuff....all the way to let's say....Warchild.

[Dan]

No defense for This Was here.

Aqua-3
TW-0