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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 18:26:39 GMT -5
Remy,
Let me say this is only a matter of personal opinion and not a judgement on your discussions with Dee or the validity of the question.
It is not being devalued, it was a question worth asking, but it is a topic that has been raised before and over a private lunch, a private discussion can be had. Once in the public domain the nuances can be lost, twisted and manipulated.
My comments were made in the light of the discussions here, everybody has a viewpoint and they are all valid if presented appropriately.
Copying or plagiarism are difficult subjects for anybody, I know I was ripped off for something major once and it pissed me off so much I didn't talk about it for 20 years.
My views are simply based on my perception of Dee's sign off, sounded to me as if she was saying thanks for listening to my detailed answer, now let's not go there again, as if she had had enough of the question already.
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Post by 99 on Sept 1, 2012 18:26:45 GMT -5
Jim It was a question worth asking, as I said. You express your opinion, I have expressed mine, in my opinion, it was a question worth asking once. A question I believe had been asked more than once and Dee politely answered it yet again. I suppose I think an artist who may have subliminally adopted a motive or as Dee so eloquently and succinctly explained the musical chances of similarities arsing, for those non-musicians amongst us, should be given the benefit of doubt. And in giving that benefit they don't really need to be prodded with the same question time snd time again, as Darin suggested previously. As you suggest Martin Barre and his influences, I wonder would you ask Florian about his heavy reliance of MB motives and riffs on TaaB2? Pity George Harrison isn't around we could ask him about the 'he's so fine /my sweet lord' case....or we could ask Noel Gallagher about his blatant Beatle lifts, but I suspect he doesn't give a fuck what you or I might ask. Only my opinion though.  BTW Which others are we treating differently? Is it possible that the similarities in the riffs and motives you mention can be attributed to the person who wrote and arranged the piece? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 18:29:19 GMT -5
Jim It was a question worth asking, as I said. You express your opinion, I have expressed mine, in my opinion, it was a question worth asking once. A question I believe had been asked more than once and Dee politely answered it yet again. I suppose I think an artist who may have subliminally adopted a motive or as Dee so eloquently and succinctly explained the musical chances of similarities arsing, for those non-musicians amongst us, should be given the benefit of doubt. And in giving that benefit they don't really need to be prodded with the same question time snd time again, as Darin suggested previously. As you suggest Martin Barre and his influences, I wonder would you ask Florian about his heavy reliance of MB motives and riffs on TaaB2? Pity George Harrison isn't around we could ask him about the 'he's so fine /my sweet lord' case....or we could ask Noel Gallagher about his blatant Beatle lifts, but I suspect he doesn't give a fuck what you or I might ask. Only my opinion though. BTW Which others are we treating differently? Is it possible that the similarities in the riffs and motives you mention can be attributed to the person who wrote and arranged the piece? If your referring to Ian, then yes of course that's possible , but then you have to devalue Martin as a guitar player of any individuality, and I wouldn't do that anymore than Jim might defend the possible uniqueness of Florian |
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Post by Tull50 on Sept 1, 2012 18:36:11 GMT -5
I agree, a good approach for the question, the first time,
but does it really need to be asked again? Continual questioning around a sensitive subject,
such as potential albeit denied plagiarism or even subliminal use of motives,
amongst artists must sound like they are designed to wind them up.. In my opinion,
it didn't warrant he question being asked again.
I asked the question which was a topic discussed during the Tullianos Convention.
I was never aware or even believed this was anything close to plagiarism.
Only a slight if subliminal coincidence. The nature of my question was not inflammatory.
The fact that I got a response was purely up to Dee.
I would have never known if Dee herself had not brought up the subject at a convention in Spain.
Music is always influenced by other artists and songs that any artist is exposed to.
Ask Martin Barre about Leslie West or Jimi Hendrix.
This was no big deal to discuss by others so I would not even consider this anywhere close to plagiarism.
Dee Palmer is a great composer and musician in her own way.
My respect for her was the reason started this thread. If others are confused I can't help them.
The first responses were positive about the question until an emotional outburst by one member.
Now there seems to be an irrational idea that I would try to embarrass Dee by asking.
I hope we all grow a little and not jump to conclusions.
At least I did not get an answer that I tried to discredit with inuendo and disbelief.
Such is the case with what Ian has said to the Board recently.
I believe every word by what Dee Palmer said. Let us not treat others differently.In conversation with Dee never speaks of plagiarism Dee brings up the subject to explain what is and what is not plagiarism She recognizes when classical influences in the melody This conversation does not take place the day of the convention, is a lunch with friends where Dee invited to eat and touch various topics, may never have left this private matter to light and I'm seeing that is being devalued... I want to make one thing clear, well maybe I do not understand or are some people who do not want to understand, not everyone is so wise and have knowledge of you, (who are against what Jim does.) I hope I was clear, many who are unaware of this issue now learn from it. Thanks again Jim, are you one of the few people in this forum with which I learn something new every day Remy |
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Post by 99 on Sept 1, 2012 18:45:32 GMT -5
Is it possible that the similarities in the riffs and motives you mention can be attributed to the person who wrote and arranged the piece? If your referring to Ian, then yes of course that's possible , but then you have to devalue Martin as a guitar player of any individuality, and I wouldn't do that anymore than Jim might defend the possible uniqueness of Florian Not sure this is the forum or topic for that discussion. |
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Post by Tull50 on Sept 1, 2012 19:02:39 GMT -5
Jim why are we confused? and if we ask a question we need to grow up?
I have to say I hear a lot MB riffs on TAAB2 is Florian plagiarizing them.
Do you think if Florian was asked many many times he would be sick of answering them.
I asked a question that was answered by Dee. If that upsets Dee then she should have said so.
The member that acted irrationally was not you Charlie.
I'm sure you don't believe everything you hear based on a rumor.
I asked a question that was a topic in Spain which was brought to my attention.
Where did Florian Opahle learn his riffs. From being a member of Jethro Tull.
If he plays one night as a member which he has, that makes him a member.
The resentment toward Florian on this album is absurd as the criticism toward Ian Anderson.
Ian has said many things that you may not agee with, but to try and use inuendo as was done recently is silly.
I thought we were Tull Fans here?
I would go see Martin play in a heartbeat if he was here. He has no shows in North Carolina yet.
The fact is Jethro Tull's Ian Anderson is playing in the U.S. should be celebrated.
If I call it Tull who cares?
I think we all like to call the music created by Ian Anderson Tull music.
I never got hung up on whether it was solo or not solo.
The issues I have discussed over other topics may have created a resentment towards my post.
I am not worried over members who get angry over people who disagree with them.
I just enjoy the music and let others whine and complain.
I'm not here to complain. Just Rock.  Well said Jim, I'm with you, this reminds me of a western!LOL Remy  P.S.I think there are people who have not read the post and still speak of plagiarism  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 20:52:16 GMT -5
Believe anything you wish.
I asked a question that was answered by Dee. If that upsets Dee then she should have said so.
The member that acted irrationally was not you Charlie.
I'm sure you don't believe everything you hear based on a rumor.
I asked a question that was a topic in Spain which was brought to my attention.
Where did Florian Opahle learn his riffs. From being a member of Jethro Tull.
If he plays one night as a member which he has, that makes him a member.
The resentment toward Florian on this album is absurd as the criticism toward Ian Anderson.
Ian has said many things that you may not agee with, but to try and use inuendo as was done recently is silly.
I thought we were Tull Fans here?
I would go see Martin play in a heartbeat if he was here. He has no shows in North Carolina yet.
The fact is Jethro Tull's Ian Anderson is playing in the U.S. should be celebrated.
If I call it Tull who cares?
I think we all like to call the music created by Ian Anderson Tull music.
I never got hung up on whether it was solo or not solo.
The issues I have discussed over other topics may have created a resentment towards my post.
I am not worried over members who get angry over people who disagree with them.
I just enjoy the music and let others whine and complain.
I'm not here to complain. Just Rock. Well said Jim, I'm with you, this reminds me of a western!LOL Remy P.S.I think there are people who have not read the post and still speak of plagiarism |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 21:03:47 GMT -5
Enough Said? Next!
Darin Cody
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Post by Nonfatman on Sept 1, 2012 22:04:25 GMT -5
At least I did not get an answer that I tried to discredit with inuendo and disbelief. Such is the case with what Ian has said to the Board recently. I believe every word by what Dee Palmer said. Let us not treat others differently. [/b][/quote] So you're taking a swipe at me now, too? Listen, pal, I'm not sure what's gotten into you, but you're pissing a lot of people off here lately. It seems like you go off on anyone who expresses any criticism, or questioning, of anything IA says or does. Jeff |
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Post by Nonfatman on Sept 1, 2012 22:10:17 GMT -5
I don't think that it was Jim's intention to annoy Dee, and I was happy that he asked the question, and posted Dee's response, because otherwise I would have never heard about this issue. So it served an informative purpose on the board, and I applauded Jim for it.
That said, Darin's point was definitely a valid one. Although Dee did not have to answer the question, yet answered it fully and politely nonetheless, it did seem that when she said "Enough said, Next" she was a bit peeved at being asked the question for the umpteenth time. Anyone reading that would be left with the same impression that Darin had.
Darin was not attacking Jim for asking the question, as Jim apparently believed. He was simply pointing out that Dee seemed a little ticked off at the end of her response.
Jeff
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 22:39:55 GMT -5
Oh Lawd, this is just a misunderstanding, like Jeff pointed out.
The best way to do this is to drink lots of whiskey first. Anyone up for a round?
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Post by Willie on Sept 2, 2012 2:47:32 GMT -5
Me! I'll buy first round if allowed...
Brothers... (and a sister here and there I see) ,is Tull really so deviscive a band? Though I dont have a little jpeg to go with my name, and though in all likelyhood I am a mere lurker rather than a Forum Member... can we not agree on the fact that Jethro Tull is a mighty group indeed!
It is my considered (and inconsequential) opinion that Dee's answer can be read as both Peeved and Not Peeved... it is in the eye of the beholder. To casual fans such as myself (my credentials: I owned all the albums at one point, a couple bootlegs, no backstagepasses, and my asshole brother caught the drumstick thrown out to the crowd on the Catfish Rising tour --damn you brother!!!!!---) ...the question about "plagarism" in Heavy Horses is purely innocent. And more to the point, Dee's answer is delightful, fascinating, and informative...even if you construe it as irritated. I happen to be a huge Gentle Giant fan and a serious dork, so an answer with this level of musical engagement is always very rewarding ( I'm sure Dee is playfully aware of this fact!)
In other words, she is providing a 100% good answer, and possibly also taking the piss. Awesome! What more could you ask for?
Worst case scenario: rock stars get repeatedly asked the same annoying questions...and who doesn't want to be a rock star from time to time? After all, isn't talking to the peanut gallery part of the fun?
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Post by jtul07 on Sept 2, 2012 6:00:58 GMT -5
Me! I'll buy first round if allowed...
Brothers... (and a sister here and there I see), is Tull really so devisive a band?
Though I dont have a little jpeg to go with my name, and though in all likelyhood
I am a mere lurker rather than a Forum Member... can we not agree on the fact
that Jethro Tull is a mighty group indeed!
It is my considered (and inconsequential) opinion that Dee's answer can be read as
both Peeved and Not Peeved... it is in the eye of the beholder.
To casual fans such as myself (my credentials: I owned all the albums at one point,
a couple bootlegs, no backstagepasses, and my asshole brother caught the drumstick
thrown out to the crowd on the Catfish Rising tour --damn you brother!!!!!---) ...the question about
"plagarism" in Heavy Horses is purely innocent. And more to the point, Dee's answer is delightful, fascinating, and informative...even if you construe it as irritated.
I happen to be a huge Gentle Giant fan and a serious dork, so an answer with this level
of musical engagement is always very rewarding ( I'm sure Dee is playfully aware of this fact!)
In other words, she is providing a 100% good answer, and possibly also taking the piss.
Awesome! What more could you ask for?
Worst case scenario: rock stars get repeatedly asked the same annoying questions...
and who doesn't want to be a rock star from time to time?
After all, isn't talking to the peanut gallery part of the fun?  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:00:13 GMT -5
Thanks Willie and Jim! I'll have a shot of Michael Collins and a Guinness--Cheers! Here is to everyone's good health!
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Post by jtul07 on Sept 2, 2012 9:11:59 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:14:30 GMT -5
Not sure this is the forum or topic for that discussion. It's probably a better place than any other place on the web to discuss it, at least it would be discussed. See our previous 'discussions' on the merits of Barre and Ophale.  |
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Post by Tull50 on Sept 2, 2012 9:20:50 GMT -5
Me! I'll buy first round if allowed... Brothers... (and a sister here and there I see) ,is Tull really so deviscive a band? Though I dont have a little jpeg to go with my name, and though in all likelyhood I am a mere lurker rather than a Forum Member... can we not agree on the fact that Jethro Tull is a mighty group indeed! It is my considered (and inconsequential) opinion that Dee's answer can be read as both Peeved and Not Peeved... it is in the eye of the beholder. To casual fans such as myself (my credentials: I owned all the albums at one point, a couple bootlegs, no backstagepasses, and my asshole brother caught the drumstick thrown out to the crowd on the Catfish Rising tour --damn you brother!!!!!---) ...the question about "plagarism" in Heavy Horses is purely innocent. And more to the point, Dee's answer is delightful, fascinating, and informative...even if you construe it as irritated. I happen to be a huge Gentle Giant fan and a serious dork, so an answer with this level of musical engagement is always very rewarding ( I'm sure Dee is playfully aware of this fact!) In other words, she is providing a 100% good answer, and possibly also taking the piss. Awesome! What more could you ask for? Worst case scenario: rock stars get repeatedly asked the same annoying questions...and who doesn't want to be a rock star from time to time? After all, isn't talking to the peanut gallery part of the fun? Willie no matter the range you have on this board are wise words that you say. I drink a Guinness to health of you Dee, Jim, Kai and Willie |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 9:21:39 GMT -5
Remy P.S.I think there are people who have not read the post and still speak of plagiarism Hi Remy, To sort out any confusion about my, and possibly others posts, no one is accusing or suggesting the issue of plagiarism remains, or even existed in the first place, merely that in raising the same question, more than once, with the same person, creates a feeling of doubt that any previous the responses to the same question aren't valid. I thank Dee for having the good grace to answer the question again with such clarity and good grace. |
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Post by Tull50 on Sept 2, 2012 9:36:47 GMT -5
Remy P.S.I think there are people who have not read the post and still speak of plagiarism Hi Remy, To sort out any confusion about my, and possibly others posts, no one is accusing or suggesting the issue of plagiarism remains, or even existed in the first place, merely that in raising the same question, more than once, with the same person, creates a feeling of doubt that any previous the responses to the same question aren't valid. I thank Dee for having the good grace to answer the question again with such clarity and good grace. Glad to hear those words I drink to you too P.S.Also had no confusion with you |
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Post by Tull50 on Sept 2, 2012 10:05:43 GMT -5
Remy are you confussed by me? My only question is, why do you feel alluded? I think the repeated questions are part of the work of the musicians. If you know Dee personally, knows that if the question bothers not responding. Dee is no longer a public figure, as it was long ago Today Dee only receives interviews from friends and fans, then I do not see the problem If you read to Willie you will realize that there are still people who learn of these issues. I keep asking myself, where in this forum is talk on this topic? P.S.Charlie Do not worry, we all have right to an opinion differently, being bad opine all equally Remy |
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Post by Nonfatman on Sept 2, 2012 10:25:02 GMT -5
I have heard this question asked of Dee in the late 70's or early 80's.
So I am not crazy about asking or having someone asking the same question again and again,
especially when it is a sensitive matter like this subject can be. That's right, keep it up Jim. Real smart. Jeff |
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Post by 99 on Sept 2, 2012 12:06:38 GMT -5
Not sure this is the forum or topic for that discussion. It's probably a better place than any other place on the web to discuss it, at least it would be discussed. See our previous 'discussions' on the merits of Barre and Ophale. You know I have, which is what prompted my comment about not being the place. Reminded me a lot of the current noise comming out of Tampa last week and no doubt out of Charlotte next week. Lot of noise, lot of passion, few facts, and less tolorence from any of the opposing contributors. At least at times it seemed entertaining. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 12:32:16 GMT -5
Does Dee Palmer have any known future projects?
I think she should join Tull for Too Old to Rock And Roll 2!! That would be like Spinal Tap on steroids... Or estrogen...
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Post by Nonfatman on Sept 2, 2012 12:41:50 GMT -5
Apologies to all offended members and Dee Palmer.
Good intentions are not always understood and may be treated as disrespect.
Since the original rant the other day by a member that accused me of being rude to Dee,
the whole issue has taken a life of it's own.
When my motives were questioned, it seems everyone wanted to take sides.
Is that what you guys want?
I am amazed when others are so quick to judge my words in such a harsh way.
I felt I was giving a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.
Instead it became Frank Zappa taking a shit on stage.
God bless everyone who agrees with my position and even those who do not.  Jim, I applauded your question to Dee and your posting of her response here because I was unaware of the story (as were others), and it served an informative purpose on the board. However, although she was polite in her answer, she did seem a little annoyed in the way she signed off on her post. Darin was merely pointing this out, he was not attacking you or criticizing you for asking the question. Honestly, I think you were overly sensitive and misinterpreted Darin's post, and you had a go at him, and it was only then that he responded in kind. But it was really you who started the unpleasantries. Plus, the truth is that you also have been taking gratuitous and unnecessary swipes at people, including me, Charlie and Darin. You have unduly attacked anyone who has stated that they're not so crazy about Florian's playing on the new album. And you seem to take great umbrage whenever anyone criticizes Ian, even though there is ample praise for him here, all over the board. The most recent example of this was your post yesterday, about "disbelief and innuendo." I don't understand what you are doing or why. This is not an Ian-worshipping site and never has been. Obviously we are all ardent fans who believe he is a musical and lyrical genius, but as a man he is flawed. He'd be the first to admit that. You seem to be putting him on this pedestal, suggesting that we must not ever criticize him or his work, or question the things he does or says. Ian himself is uncomfortable with being idolized in that way. It scares him. You were not like this for the first eight or nine months that you were here, but I have noticed a disturbing change in your demeanor and posting style over the past several months, and I'm not quite sure why you are doing this. The fact of the matter is that we all like you, but don't understand what you have been doing lately.  Jeff |
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Post by Nonfatman on Sept 2, 2012 13:12:53 GMT -5
Maybe you could ask the Zappa Family Trust if Frank really took a dump on stage?
(no colored or giant glowing typefaces or dancing weenie emoticons were used in the production of this post)
Darin Cody  That's called a joke, Jim, nothing more than gentle ribbing, to which you overreacted in a very thin-skinned way. Jeff |
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