David Palmer - Dee Palmer

[jtul07]

I know that David became Dee Palmer several years ago and this may have been controversial to many.
He was doing the only thing to give him/her a new life the way she would have preferred if given a choice.
I don't have any problem with what is the most personal decision anyone could make.
No one should be judgmental about such a private matter. My happiness is being married over 33 years and having 1 son.
We all live in ways to appreciate our differences and accept those differences with tolerance.
I respect Dee Palmer for her decision and also for the years when David Palmer was a member of Tull.
Those were great years indeed and I only saw him twice during the War Child tour and the '77 tour in Greensboro.

This concert review was done by local media in Raleigh during his 1995 symphonic tour.
I hope others will post rare pics and memories of such a special talented person.
God bless you Dee.

[TM]

Thanks for posting that Jim.

Dee was supposed to perform in NY a few years back but then canceled. Not sure what happened....

[jrpipik]

A great interview from 2003 with Dee on the tull sight:
www.j-tull.com/news/deepalmerand.cfm

I haven't been able to find any word about new music, though.

[My God]

Aug 6, 2011 14:38:52 GMT -5 TM said:

Thanks for posting that Jim.

Dee was supposed to perform in NY a few years back but then canceled. Not sure what happened....

Will Dee ever put out an album of new material?


Yes and she's bad eyed and she's loveless.

[jtul07]

David Palmer and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra



Just got this over the weekend. It Rocks !

[flutestobranches]

Well said at the top of this thread, Jim! You are a very open-minded and thoughtful person. The world needs more people like you. Keep it up!

--David

[jtul07]

May 7, 2012 11:11:48 GMT -5 @flutestobranches said:

Well said at the top of this thread, Jim! You are a very open-minded and thoughtful person.
The world needs more people like you. Keep it up!
--David

Thank you David.
I find that most Tull Fans are open minded over many issues.
When I first heard about David Palmer becoming Dee Palmer, it was real surprise.
The more I think about it, the more I respect her for being the person she is today.
here is her web page missdeepalmer.com/

[tootull]

Canadian CD (timing is actually 54:22)

[skytzo]

He didn't officially join the band until the TOTRNR tour in '76....just sayin'.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2012 7:22:27 GMT -5 skytzo said:

He didn't officially join the band until the TOTRNR tour in '76....just sayin'.

Skytzo, I recently had an exchange with the "Ministry of Information" about that very thing. They have Palmer listed as "Officially" joining the band at the outset of the 77 SFTW tour.
www.ministry-of-information.co.uk/setlist/77.htm

I pointed out that he was on the 76 "Stadium Tour" (TOTRNR Tour) and their response was that 77 was when Jethro Tull first listed him as an "official" member.
Darin Cody

[skytzo]

May 21, 2012 10:26:18 GMT -5 @darincody said:

May 20, 2012 7:22:27 GMT -5 skytzo said:

He didn't officially join the band until the TOTRNR tour in '76....just sayin'.

Skytzo, I recently had an exchange with the "Ministry of Information" about that very thing. They have Palmer listed as "Officially" joining the band at the outset of the 77 SFTW tour.
www.ministry-of-information.co.uk/setlist/77.htm

I pointed out that he was on the 76 "Stadium Tour" (TOTRNR Tour) and their response was that 77 was when Jethro Tull first listed him as an "official" member.
Darin Cody

Ok, then maybe "officially" was the incorrect term to use. I meant that he didn't play live onstage with the band until '76, which was obviously after the Warchild tour.

[Conundrum]

I am still shocked by it! I mean, how can he go from being a man to wanting to be a woman? Especially after he was married to a woman and has kids of his own.

But, no matter what, he is a fabulous musician, composer and arranger. He knows his stuff and I am sure is also a great conductor.

[Warchild Tsunami]

I saw Tull many times with David on portative pipe organ during 70's shows,was a great musician and part of what I considered the "heyday" of Tull as he also was instrumental(pun intended!)during the Warchild album,which as we all know was the best of Tull!Rainbow"fucking "Blues!

[jtul07]

Hello Dee,
I hope you've had a great summer and looking forward to new things.
Being a member of the Jethro Tull Board allowed me to see the great music
that was played in Spain during the Tullianos convention in July on video.

A Tull fan whom was there mentioned a story about this song in relationship to the song "Heavy Horses".
Do you recall this piece of music as inspiration during that time?

The Humoresque No 7 in G Flat Major for piano by Dvorak.

Dear Jim,

Any reference in the song Heavy Horses to the Dvorak Humoresque is, I suspect,
entirely subliminal - although I was accused (by a leading disc-jockey, radio personality at the time)
of being involved in a plagiarism about which I had, regrettably no right of reply "on air"
though I recall that both Martin and myself had some, small, input into
the name of the song and to its melodic construct.

Needless to say, and without any awareness of the similarity to the Dvorak which,
after all, is a merely a simple melody beginning on the 6th degree of the major scale,
ascending to the tonic then descending to the dominant, back up a tone
down again and ending on the 3rd.
Any one could have written a similar line and employed a similar rhythm.
Why not make it a subject of research?

As to the subliminal presence of the melody, I had a superb "jazzy" version
by the incomparable Art Tatum (which is on Youtube; the theme was also quoted
(as "source music" in the musical "Street Scene" by Kurt Weill.
I can remember hearing it: it was played by a violin in the show and noting
that it was in G major rather than G flat (the written key).

Enough said? Next!
Best wishes, Dee x

[Tull50]

Aug 30, 2012 11:06:45 GMT -5 jtul07 said:

Hello Dee,
I hope you've had a great summer and looking forward to new things.
Being a member of the Jethro Tull Board allowed be me see the great music
that was played in Spain during the Tullianos convention in July.

A Tull fan whom was there mentioned a story about this song in relationship to the song "Heavy Horses".
Do you recall this piece of music as inspiration during that time?

The Humoresque No 7 in G Flat Major for piano by Dvorak.

Dear Jim,

Any reference in the song Heavy Horses to the Dvorak Humoresque is, I suspect,
entirely subliminal - although I was accused (by a leading disc-jockey, radio personality at the time)
of being involved in a plagiarism about which I had, regrettably no right of reply "on air"
though I recall that both Martin and myself had some, small, input into
the name of the song and to its melodic construct.

Needless to say, and without any awareness of the similarity to the Dvorak which,
after all, is a merely a simple melody beginning on the 6th degree of the major scale,
ascending to the tonic then descending to the dominant, back up a tone
down again and ending on the 3rd.
Any one could have written a similar line and employed a similar rhythm.
Why not make it a subject of research?

As to the subliminal presence of the melody, I had a superb "jazzy" version
by the incomparable Art Tatum (which is on Youtube; the theme was also quoted
(as "source music" in the musical "Street Scene" by Kurt Weill.
I can remember hearing it: it was played by a violin in the show and noting
that it was in G major rather than G flat (the written key).

Enough said? Next!
Best wishes, Dee x

Great job Jim , it really is the same melody but as you know in Tullianos discussed this topic and our friend Gabriela Guardiola( Tundra) brought us out of doubt, in words very similar to those Dee Palmer.
Thank you for opening this thread, because Dee is a tulliana more

Gabriela Guardiola & Dee Palmer

[Nonfatman]

Jim, nice work in asking a good question and eliciting a response and from Dee.

I was completely unaware of an issue ever arising regarding any alleged similarity between HH and a Dvorak composition.

I love how Dee explains what is going on musically in such a nonchalant way, like of course, we all know what she is talking about!

Jeff

[jtul07]

Aug 30, 2012 14:18:27 GMT -5 Nonfatman said:

Jim, nice work in asking a good question and eliciting a response and from Dee.

I was completely unaware of an issue ever arising regarding any alleged similarity between HH and a Dvorak composition.

I love how Dee explains what is going on musically in such a nonchalant way,
like of course, we all know what she is talking about!
Jeff

Thanks Jeff ;D
Dee was very kind to respond to my question.
I hope she will add some insight into musical ideas in the future.
I am not a musician, but I can hear some similar parts to the music with "Heavy Horses".
I was surprised that others would accuse Tull of plagiarism.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2012 12:32:30 GMT -5 Tull50 said:

Aug 30, 2012 11:06:45 GMT -5 jtul07 said:

Hello Dee,
I hope you've had a great summer and looking forward to new things.
Being a member of the Jethro Tull Board allowed be me see the great music
that was played in Spain during the Tullianos convention in July.

A Tull fan whom was there mentioned a story about this song in relationship to the song "Heavy Horses".
Do you recall this piece of music as inspiration during that time?

The Humoresque No 7 in G Flat Major for piano by Dvorak.

Dear Jim,

Any reference in the song Heavy Horses to the Dvorak Humoresque is, I suspect,
entirely subliminal - although I was accused (by a leading disc-jockey, radio personality at the time)
of being involved in a plagiarism about which I had, regrettably no right of reply "on air"
though I recall that both Martin and myself had some, small, input into
the name of the song and to its melodic construct.

Needless to say, and without any awareness of the similarity to the Dvorak which,
after all, is a merely a simple melody beginning on the 6th degree of the major scale,
ascending to the tonic then descending to the dominant, back up a tone
down again and ending on the 3rd.
Any one could have written a similar line and employed a similar rhythm.
Why not make it a subject of research?

As to the subliminal presence of the melody, I had a superb "jazzy" version
by the incomparable Art Tatum (which is on Youtube; the theme was also quoted
(as "source music" in the musical "Street Scene" by Kurt Weill.
I can remember hearing it: it was played by a violin in the show and noting
that it was in G major rather than G flat (the written key).

Enough said? Next!
Best wishes, Dee x

Great job Jim , it really is the same melody but as you know in Tullianos discussed this topic and our friend Gabriela Guardiola( Tundra) brought us out of doubt, in words very similar to those Dee Palmer.

This is a very old claim (1978?), you can hear whats being referred to at around 1:40 on in the youtube, it's pretty recognizable.
Fact is, there are only 12 notes in the western scale and it's amazing that more classical music isn't recognized in pop or rock music and is probably more by accident or coincidence than not.
For instance. "Dont Sleep In The Subway" (Hatch and Trent) recorded by Petula Clark 1967 used the progression from the Pachelbel Canon.Then part of the Hatch and Trent song was lifted by Focus in 1973 for the song "Focus 3". Pretty insidious... On purpose? who knows....

I'm sure that underneath Dee's very polite and very complete response, she was groaning that she had to answer this "accusation" once again. I'm sure that she just wants the record to be clear that it was not intentional. She sounds, rightly, a little sensitive about it. "Enough said? next!"

Darin Cody

[Nonfatman]

Aug 31, 2012 16:53:02 GMT -5 @darincody said:

Aug 31, 2012 9:53:02 GMT -5 jtul07 said:

Darin, you seem to be so sure of things.
Even about what Frank Zappa would think. Amazing and Fascinating at the same time.

On this your right, I apologize for using the word "SURE" at all, let alone twice! Im SURE sorry. Maybe if I substitute "I'LL BET" you'll feel better. I am SURE that the following explaination will be a pure waste of words but here goes.

Why I think Dee was possibly non-plussed by the question of her plagerising something. (by anne elk, ah hem)

Let's pretend that you, Jim, are a composer,...yes I know your not but lets pretend. A professional composer. You rely on your reputation for doing good work. Original work. You don't "cheat" by lifting bits of work done by others. You rely on your good reputation among your peers and fans/consumers to make a living. Not to mention the certain amount of pride you take in knowing you do a good job, something to be proud of. You want other people to consider you serious and good at what you do. Your a pro. I know, but just imagine though...
SO, you inadvertently write something that you may have heard years back that is stored deep down in your brain.....OR you write a passage that seems to sound like something else. It happens. I'll BET!!.
The press gets ahold of the mistake and claims you are a "CHEATER!" Okay so you explain ....to one then another, then another and another, another, another......for years,..... 35 figgen years. This just wont die.
I'M BETTING it can't feel as good as someone asking:
"Hey Jim, what are you working on now? where can I get a hold of it, I'd love to hear it!?"
But no. Even though Remy made the comment that Dee was asked this and explained it in Spain recently, you nicely and politely posed the question yet again. Then go on to post that, I'm paraphasing, "who on earth could accuse Tull/Ian of plagerism?" The short answer is....you!
The simple fact that it's asked means people are still wondering if Dee/Ian/Tull is a cheater.....Just Possibly, Dee hearing that your with the Tull Board saw the chance to spread the "cure" once more among fans. Hence her quick and very complete musical response. Her sign off was clue, "Enough Said? Next!" Wasn't it you that was telling folks that they should read between the lines lately?
This is all just theory and wild postulation on my part.

But if you don't believe me (about Dee not being happy with the question) Why .......don't you put the question to Ian? YES! Your going to see him soon. You'll see him at the backstage door to sign your whatever you have. I'D BET that he won't even take the time to give you a steely eyed, hate filled glance before he smiles, turns and walks away.
Then again, maybe he'll be happy that you noticed and admire you for having the balls to ask such a question and then invite you to go out with he a Shona so you can talk about it and close down a bar.....!!! Win Win!!
So now you can edit out a couple of my sentences, attach a picture to it and make your clever one line response in 24 point red type.

How do I know what Frank Zappa thinks? About taking a dump on stage? well, he's dead now.... but when he was alive he wrote a book and dedicated a short chapter to the weird things he's been accused of doing over his career. I read it. Twice. I'm SURE.
Darin "Only sure of one thing" Cody

PS Better yet, why dont you ask Buzz Aldrin weather he really walked on the moon or not and what does he think of the people that claim he didn't? I'D SURE like to see his response to you.

Darin, based upon Dee's terse "enough said, next" remark, it is likely that you are right - although I am not certain.

Jeff

[Teacher]

[quote author=remy board=tales thread=2143 post=28604 time=1346457615
I'm sorry because I read too many cynical things about it and I have something to say. I'll stand up for Jim, but for the moment I can not cite my source, if I'm going to say this is commented by Dee to others during an informal lunch very recently.
I can assure you that Dee is not at all bothered by the question Jim, she is happy to explain clearly an issue that some people still being discussed, and what better place than the Board to do so?
My full support Jim and thank you for doing things as they should be, inquiring and asking the source directly.
Congratulations on this contribution.
I disagree with those who want to criticize or offend downplay this topic, not everyone knows so much that they do not explain anything new, I'm sure Jim's contribution will be interesting for most members of the Board
Sorry Darin your words seem cynical, perhaps there is something I do not understand my little knowledge of the language.I know him and his attitude has surprised me
P.S. When I met the subject interested me, especially when I found out it was Dee who wanted to clarify.(Possibly because she made arrangements and recognizes inspired this melody for the song. Dee words)
I hope I have said what I meant and that my little knowledge of their language does not lead to interpret things that do not mean
There are some things among you that I'm missing, personal things?

Remy.[/quote]

I guess we have it straight from the horses mouth. (Or maybe the Heavy Horses mouth.) I'll go with what Remy says. He was there. Thanks for the clarification.

[jtul07]

Aug 31, 2012 19:49:31 GMT -5 Teacher said:

Aug 31, 2012 19:00:15 GMT -5 Tull50 said:

I'm sorry because I read too many cynical things about it and I have something to say. I'll stand up for Jim, but for the moment I can not cite my source, if I'm going to say this is commented by Dee to others during an informal lunch very recently.
I can assure you that Dee is not at all bothered by the question Jim, she is happy to explain clearly an issue that some people still being discussed, and what better place than the Board to do so?
My full support Jim and thank you for doing things as they should be, inquiring and asking the source directly.
Congratulations on this contribution.
I disagree with those who want to criticize or offend downplay this topic, not everyone knows so much that they do not explain anything new, I'm sure Jim's contribution will be interesting for most members of the Board
Sorry Darin your words seem cynical, perhaps there is something I do not understand my little knowledge of the language.I know him and his attitude has surprised me
P.S. When I met the subject interested me, especially when I found out it was Dee who wanted to clarify.(Possibly because she made arrangements and recognizes inspired this melody for the song. Dee words)
I hope I have said what I meant and that my little knowledge of their language does not lead to interpret things that do not mean
There are some things among you that I'm missing, personal things?
Remy.

I guess we have it straight from the horses mouth.
(Or maybe the Heavy Horses mouth.) I'll go with what Remy says.
He was there. Thanks for the clarification.

Thank you for these kind words.

[jtul07]

God Bless you Dee Palmer. You were very kind to send me this.

[Tull50]

Aug 31, 2012 19:49:31 GMT -5 Teacher said:

[quote author=remy board=tales thread=2143 post=28604 time=1346457615
I'm sorry because I read too many cynical things about it and I have something to say. I'll stand up for Jim, but for the moment I can not cite my source, if I'm going to say this is commented by Dee to others during an informal lunch very recently.
I can assure you that Dee is not at all bothered by the question Jim, she is happy to explain clearly an issue that some people still being discussed, and what better place than the Board to do so?
My full support Jim and thank you for doing things as they should be, inquiring and asking the source directly.
Congratulations on this contribution.
I disagree with those who want to criticize or offend downplay this topic, not everyone knows so much that they do not explain anything new, I'm sure Jim's contribution will be interesting for most members of the Board
Sorry Darin your words seem cynical, perhaps there is something I do not understand my little knowledge of the language.I know him and his attitude has surprised me
P.S. When I met the subject interested me, especially when I found out it was Dee who wanted to clarify.(Possibly because she made arrangements and recognizes inspired this melody for the song. Dee words)
I hope I have said what I meant and that my little knowledge of their language does not lead to interpret things that do not mean
There are some things among you that I'm missing, personal things?

Remy.

I guess we have it straight from the horses mouth. (Or maybe the Heavy Horses mouth.) I'll go with what Remy says. He was there. Thanks for the clarification.[/quote]

Thanks for your words Teacher


Remy

[jtul07]

From Music of Pink Floyd - Orchestral maneuvers
David Palmer and The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra

[Deleted]

Jim
It was a question worth asking, as I said.

You express your opinion, I have expressed mine, in my opinion, it was a question worth asking once. A question I believe had been asked more than once and Dee politely answered it yet again.

I suppose I think an artist who may have subliminally adopted a motive or as Dee so eloquently and succinctly explained the musical chances of similarities arsing, for those non-musicians amongst us, should be given the benefit of doubt. And in giving that benefit they don't really need to be prodded with the same question time snd time again, as Darin suggested previously.

As you suggest Martin Barre and his influences, I wonder would you ask Florian about his heavy reliance of MB motives and riffs on TaaB2?

Pity George Harrison isn't around we could ask him about the 'he's so fine /my sweet lord' case....or we could ask Noel Gallagher about his blatant Beatle lifts, but I suspect he doesn't give a fuck what you or I might ask.

Only my opinion though.

BTW Which others are we treating differently?