Non Rabbit
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Post by Non Rabbit on Jun 12, 2013 16:19:26 GMT -5
Apologies if this has been covered.
Nothing new in music they say, bands ripping off ideas and tunes. Zep and Purple readily admitted this, but Tull's music is a bit out there on its own. I remember Ian (half jokingly?) complaining the Eagles ripped off the We Used To Know chord sequence for Hotel California and they fit perfectly.
Bouree apart anyone think of songs Tull have ripped off or vice versa?
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Post by TM on Jun 12, 2013 16:34:20 GMT -5
Well of course you have A Christmas Song which I only found out a few years ago.
I always thought the guitar part in Still Loving You Tonight sounded awfully close to something I had heard but can't put a finger on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 17:32:33 GMT -5
Well of course you have A Christmas Song which I only found out a few years ago. I always thought the guitar part in Still Loving You Tonight sounded awfully close to something I had heard but can't put a finger on it. L-E-D Z-E-P-P-E-L-I-N shhhhhhh and a Santana Instrumental both titles escape me at the moment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 23:30:44 GMT -5
I'm sure we could find Tull plagiarism. Interesting idea.
There is always the heartbeat in the beginning of Passion Play, similar to Pink Floyd.
I think most musicians steal songs in one way or another, if not all. That's sort of how music works. I suppose there is a fine line between plagiarism and influence.
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Post by deselby on Jun 12, 2013 23:38:48 GMT -5
It is unfair for you to call it plagiarism when all is really about quoting and rearranging.
Tull's music features a lot of quotations from not only specific music but even music style parodies.
@tm: It is the very begging "Still got the blues". The first five notes of the refrain to be accurate. Ironically Gary Moore went to trial for plagiarism of the song Nordrach by Jud's Gallery (1974)
Fast Forward to 6' 17"
Really it's just a progression in the circle of fifths, probably the most used musical device since the renaissance. Moore's refrain just unfolds too easily once you've the first notes. Tull's song on the other hand is more complex, and one of their best.
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skytzo
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Post by skytzo on Jun 13, 2013 11:49:08 GMT -5
There is always the heartbeat in the beginning of Passion Play, similar to Pink Floyd. Considering both albums came out within months of each other, I'd chalk it up to coincidence. Now, if you really wanted to make a case of Floyd sound effects plagiarism, the wind effects on TAAB could've been lifted from the intro of One Of These Days, which came out a year earlier. ;D
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Prompter
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Post by Prompter on Jun 13, 2013 12:27:08 GMT -5
I also wouldn't point fingers at Tull for the heartbeat, since it is featured even on the Chateau Tapes, which are from '72, slightly before or about the same time that Floyd started recording Dark Side of the Moon in London.
Speaking of Tull and plagiarism, nothing on the scale of Zeppelin really comes to mind, so I'd never think of Ian Anderson or the band as plagiarists.
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Post by Mothfairy on Jun 13, 2013 13:07:20 GMT -5
Heartbeat is also on a Lord of the Dance song, 'Stolen Kiss.' I always think of APP and I had to do a performance to that song. That's not rock or anything but definitely another example of the heartbeat.
Is that true about Hotel California? I don't know why, that song always aggravated me.
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Post by My God on Jun 13, 2013 13:14:31 GMT -5
Plagiarism...oh please....we must have something better to talk about than that....a new Tull album....have I been gone that long???
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 16:29:21 GMT -5
Well yes, Plagiarism is a crime and done with intention. I dont think we are actually discussing that at all. I would side with Deselby's comments that it is so easy to "quote" unconsciously and even consciously, as a nod to some one else's song. Especially when your talking blues. A blues riff actually uses less than the western 12 notes in the scale, so that not only narrows the odds that your going to run into someone else's riff, but is a traditionally totally accepted practice in jazz, blues and folk. No one is accusing Ian of ripping off somebodys music. This reminds me of the the passage in Heavy Horses that caused such a fuss here. Plagerism is a serious accusation. "Sounds like" can just happen. Darin
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 17:35:28 GMT -5
Even within the blues scale Tull did a good job of writing unique riffs. Ian's flute playing style was most similar to Rahsaan Roland Kirk with whom Tull covered "Serenade to a Cuckoo" and the credit was given to RRK making it a cover and not a rip off. When Ian covered Bouree and jazzed it up a little he shared the credit with Johann Bach. The difference with Zeppelin is they would cover a tune almost exactly like the original with just subtle differences and credit themselves for the songwriting. The only thing that comes close is that "Christmas Song" was credited solely to Anderson although the entire melody was obviously borrowed.. that may be like old traditional church music? I have recognized other melodies in Tull that sound like old english church music and old christmas carols. Obviously "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" etc.. but Off the top of my head of the many great Tull rock songs I can't think of any unacknowledged direct borrowings. Defiantly a melodic style similar to alot of old classical and celtic music but Tull songs for the most part are some of the most unique songwriting and riff writing. That's partly why I love them.
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Non Rabbit
One of the Youngest of the Family
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Post by Non Rabbit on Jun 14, 2013 3:23:03 GMT -5
OK, OK, perhaps plagiarism is a bit strong a term. I'm thinking about ideas, the odd riff, chord sequence or rhythm that's been borrowed unintentionally or otherwise. Not just by Tull but taken from Tull (We Used to Know/ Hotel California)
Point is there's not much I can find 'cause Tull were/are so unique. I need to give Crest of a Knave a serious listening to again though.
Reason this came to mind was I had been listening to these two albums recently when bam. First few bars of each song.
As I said before, in music there's nothing new in this so don't sweat the small stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 5:05:42 GMT -5
OK, OK, perhaps plagiarism is a bit strong a term. I'm thinking about ideas, the odd riff, chord sequence or rhythm that's been borrowed unintentionally or otherwise. Not just by Tull but taken from Tull (We Used to Know/ Hotel California) Point is there's not much I can find 'cause Tull were/are so unique. I need to give Crest of a Knave a serious listening to again though. Reason this came to mind was I had been listening to these two albums recently when bam. First few bars of each song. As I said before, in music there's nothing new in this so don't sweat the small stuff. yeah, those are dead on. wow.. Here are a couple great Zeppelin comparison videos
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 5:08:25 GMT -5
hit the road jack...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2013 19:08:49 GMT -5
When I was a kid I watched Gerry Anderson's super marination puppet stuff. A bit late for me at the time but in 1983 he did a kids show co-written with Christopher Burr called Terrahawks. The theme to that show composed and performed by Richard Harvey, sounds likevthere's a few familiar themes going on in there.
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Post by Geoff CB on Jun 18, 2013 8:38:54 GMT -5
Seeing we're Led Zeppelin bashing...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 12:47:15 GMT -5
Seeing we're Led Zeppelin bashing... So Small Faces ripped it off from Willie Dixon before Zepp ripped it from them......LOL I "Think" that alot of those blues players didnt "properly" copyright their stuff back in those days anyway. They would borrow and quote each other all the time, so maybe they didn't think it was that big of a deal........until Zepp and some others started making millions on them...... DC
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Post by Geoff CB on Jun 18, 2013 21:25:08 GMT -5
Ian sure copied Kirk's mannerisms! Geoff
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 23:59:32 GMT -5
Ian sure copied Kirk's mannerisms! Geoff What makes Ian such a genius (and still baffles me) is how nobody else has ever come close to incorporating the flute (originally with jazz techniques) into mainstream radio rock music. There has been some light flute here and there through 45 years and there are many (unknown) prog bands who are heavily influenced by Ian, but being able to write such great (especially heavy rock) music and have the flute fit like it's meant to be there is amazing to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 9:09:11 GMT -5
Well yes, Plagiarism is a crime and done with intention. I dont think we are actually discussing that at all. I would side with Deselby's comments that it is so easy to "quote" unconsciously and even consciously, as a nod to some one else's song. Especially when your talking blues. A blues riff actually uses less than the western 12 notes in the scale, so that not only narrows the odds that your going to run into someone else's riff, but is a traditionally totally accepted practice in jazz, blues and folk. No one is accusing Ian of ripping off somebodys music. This reminds me of the the passage in Heavy Horses that caused such a fuss here. Plagerism is a serious accusation. "Sounds like" can just happen. Darin I agree, many of Tull's melodies, rhythms, lyrics, etc. were influenced by other music, but it's questionable to call Tull unoriginal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 9:55:00 GMT -5
Well yes, Plagiarism is a crime and done with intention. I dont think we are actually discussing that at all. I would side with Deselby's comments that it is so easy to "quote" unconsciously and even consciously, as a nod to some one else's song. Especially when your talking blues. A blues riff actually uses less than the western 12 notes in the scale, so that not only narrows the odds that your going to run into someone else's riff, but is a traditionally totally accepted practice in jazz, blues and folk. No one is accusing Ian of ripping off somebodys music. This reminds me of the the passage in Heavy Horses that caused such a fuss here. Plagerism is a serious accusation. "Sounds like" can just happen. Darin I agree, many of Tull's melodies, rhythms, lyrics, etc. were influenced by other music, but it's questionable to call Tull unoriginal. Ian (and John Evans) made it a point early on not to listen to other bands music. They knew all they needed to know to make a successful song. As far as structure went though, they wanted to make their own. Which seemed to have worked out for them . Darin
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Tomn
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Post by Tomn on Jun 27, 2013 8:37:38 GMT -5
Maybe not a direct cop, but the David Sancious piano intro to Springsteen's 1973 'New York City Serenade' sure feels a lot like the opening of 'Locomotive Breath'. Of course, LB preceeded the Springsteen release by a few years
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Oldghost
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Post by Oldghost on Jun 30, 2013 9:50:15 GMT -5
A few examples of Tull plagiarism which come to my mind: Said She Was A Dancer ---- Romeo and Juliet (Dire straits) Budapest ---- Private Investigations (Dire Straits) Mountain Men ---- Walk of Life (Dire Straits) + Visions In Blue (Ultravox) The Waking Edge ---- Brothers In Arms (Dire Straits) Raising Steam ---- Money For Nothing (Dire Straits) The Whalers Dues ---- Child In Time (Deep Purple) Truck Stop Runner ---- You Can Call Me Al (Paul Simon) There may be a few more...
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Post by TM on Jun 30, 2013 11:53:55 GMT -5
Truck Stop Runner definitely made me think of Paul.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 12:35:51 GMT -5
I can definitely hear similarities. Good ear Oldghost
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